Wayland works perfectly, except for when it doesn't

A month ago I reported an issue I was having with my desktop running Plasma that didn’t exist on my Steamdeck. The difference was xsm or XSMP an x11 tech, I remember adding it to my .xsession file back in 2005 but it’s since been made a core part of the DE’s settings managers. Steps to reproduce was running Brave the following way:

Switching to Xorg solved all the issues I was having, so no. When anyone says “Wayland works perfectly” they literally have no idea what they are talking about because there is no way any one person has tested everything and specifically it has known issues with Window Placement. I’ve since moved to Xlibre for continued support.

Does anyone know of a browser that has x11 style session restore outside of Xlibre? How come people call wayland complete or perfect when Xwayland doesn’t have xsm a feature both Gnome and KDE have it as a core part of their x11 stack?

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Reporting in to say Wayland is is fairly broken for some of my uses as well. From all the discussion I read it seems like there is no desired to make it as robust as Xorg.

The KiCad devs (the people who’ve made the most successful linux-native opensource CAD program) issued a pretty scathing rebuke of Wayland about a year ago and basically threw their hands up at getting their “issues” resolved upstream.

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Worth poining out a good chunk of their issues are caused by GNOME devs effectively vetoing any proposal to implement a wayland protocol to provide the functionality needed.

The “anybody in the core group can veto for any reason” principle of Wayland protocol development has been a disaster and nothing will change until they adopt some way that lets everybody ignore GNOMEs nonsense

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It is no secret that x11 / xlibre JustWorks™ mostly on Nvidia when comparing it to Wayland. Nvidia users are flooding the CachyOS forums with different Steam Launch Options as a “remedy” for using Nvidia on linux. Lame “potential” fixes that doesnt actually fix any of the issues.

How is that even comparable to using Wayland as the daily driver. For gaming on Nvidia everybody should be on xorg in one way or another. Wayland is simply not ready, its pushed like its already there, but its not. It also wont be in any near, future. Because Nvidia DontCare™ About Wayland.

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Multi monitor setups have always been a problem on both Windows and Linux. Always.

Oftentimes you will get lucky and the right combination of drivers and hardware combine to create a stable experience for you. But there are no guarantees for that and if it works, it’s by sheer dumb luck. I can name plenty of other times when windows jump around on Xorg and Windows as well. Especially with laptops.

The only stable way for windows to stick in the same position consistently (e.g. works for every screen setup) across monitors, sleep mode and unplugging / replugging the laptop dock I have found is to go the route of i3; Every virtual desktop fits on exactly one screen, and then the windows are positioned in that virtual desktop and it is the virtual desktop that get assigned to separate screens.

This and an improved way to do native tiling has been on my wishlist card for Gnome since 2015 or so. I hear that steps are finally being taken to fix this in both KDE and Gnome, which is great news.

However, whether you like it or not, Xorg is going away. What you are seeing now are the last transition hurdles as apps that refused to touch wayland are finally forced to take the step.

We saw the same issues with pure ALSA → PulseAudio, and a lot of those issues were because ALSA was a godawful hack and spagetthi code everywhere that made it almost impossible to implement something better on top of it. The PulseAudio devs persevered, but late 00s was not a fun time to run Ubuntu as sound was pretty borked as apps slowly switched over, emulation layers were perfected and the new way of things made its way into most distros.

wayland is both in kind of the same situation, and not. Xorg is now being phased out because the pain of fixing Xorg is greater than the pain of adapting to wayland. That does not mean wayland is perfect. Some is from lack of support or an incompatible way to do the same thing, and some of the friction is due to differences in philosophy, like the decision that an application should never care about window placement - and if it does, that is an outdated concept and now considered legacy behavior.

As with any new rule, you might think it is stupid and as always there will be a gazillion ways to break any rule - but it is the rule because the devs made it that way. Most rules in wayland are not arbitrary, but chosen with a focus on privacy and security.

And btw, Radeon is the gold standard here with regards to desktop and ecosystem support. Intel is trying but doesn’t quite have the resources. Nvidia is dragging their feet as always, their solution is currently “working but…”

So the TLDR; - Yes, not perfect. But getting there, and hopefully certain GPU and software vendors / projects will remove that stick in their bum, roll up their sleeves and get to work creating a decent Linux environment again.

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The sound thing is not a comparable example, a comparable situation would be either OSS to ALSA or PA to PW. Did both of these go well? I’m not sure and I don’t think anyone can be, it’s always just going to be “Works for me.” and that’s miles away from works.

pain of fixing Xorg is greater than the pain of adapting to wayland. This is only true if you ignore the pain of implementing every feature of Xorg! Right? If you instead look at what it takes to implement Wayland as a replacement for Xorg… then this solution is so expensive the debt will never be paid, is that what you are saying? That X and Y will just never be part of Wayland because ditching them is what makes Wayland affordable in the first place.

So just stop, they messed up and don’t care.

Perhaps it’s just me, but they seem to just run scared when the truth is brought out? Now for your critique there is an issue with “them” needing special hardware that’s known to not work well :sweat_smile: However, my example would take about 30 seconds to test and only involves doing the one thing that I declare is more painful than it’s supposed to be… Meaning them being silent about how testing went is a clear data-point indicating that they know testing will not go well for them.

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Calling gpus that have more than 90% market share in gaming and work fine on windos “special hardware” is a bit tone deaf.

Also worth noting most people especially in this day and age are just trying to convert what they have already in their windos gaming rig, so its perfectly normal and expected to see a ton of people with nvidia cards

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Even though thats the case, most will still not admit that being on any xorg would be far less problematic than otherwise on Nvidia. They will go to further lengths and say that wayland is ready, has been, is and will be even better in the near future, which is totally not true aswell. As far as any gaming goes, problems will still be there and they will simply have a better working desktop on xorg over wayland in both the near and the far future.

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If there is still no fully working alternative to X11 after 15 years of development, then the project is just not living up to what it needs to be. In my view this is because of the people who are working on Wayland and the dysfunctional organisation. Wayland is not the only option and it has obviously failed to do what it set out to do in a reasonable time frame. The proper way to describe the Wayland devlopment process is “trainwreck”. At some point you just have to pull the plug and face the sunk cost fallacy that is obviously happening here. Wayland is not inevitable nor is it irreplaceable.

The current organisation should just be sent off and a more effective organisation needs to be put in place to manage this effort. Instead of having umpteen number of alternative specs for certain areas of window management, effectively creating anything but a common ground to base your work on, a replacement of Wayland should distill a single (set of) spec(s) that will cover what needs to be done, drawing lessons from how Wayland derailed and exploded.

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I’m trying to build a collection of posts with these three, I wonder what will happen.

Cheers.

What other option is there, that you speak of? Xorg is certainly not an option as it does not support things like HDR.

Remember Xorg is NOT an option. It is being discontinued for good reason. Any fork of xorg is also not good. Xorg is a slowly crumbling and sinking ship, and anyone refusing wayland at this point is only making it harder and harder on themselves.

As for Nvidia they have chosen to be a second class citizen within Linux, by refusing the Mesa stack. This is now coming around to bite them.

At the same time, they are not 90% of the gaming market but 90% of the discrete GPU market. There are a lot more installations that run integrated and Discrete market is slowly shrinking, actually.

Let’s say you wanted to run Adobe, you could then say “What other option is there, than to run MS Windows.” You are talking to ppl who have already abandond the “popular” option and trying to convince them that your solution is the most popular… Yeah, no that’s not correct.

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Sorry you got that wrong. Lets ask Gemini:

“Hey Gemini, why are all distros leaving xorg behind”

So, there you have it. Transition or cry, or don’t and cry. Biggest major hurdle now is Nvidia and that is pretty much the only hurdle left.

The majority of desktops have moved on with or without Nvidia and Nvidia can fix their shit or get left behind in Windows land and the 2010s. Their choice. :slightly_smiling_face:

There are legit grievances but dont come spouting crap about Xorg being better. It is not.

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You put the conclusion into the premises. That’s called a leading question or sometimes begging the question… I think, not %100 sure of the philosophy. However, I can see another great example of someone who doesn’t have any idea what they are talking about.

Did you do my test? You know it’s falling behind X11 in terms of features so it doesn’t matter if it’s newer, it is still not as powerful.

b3945966fda2c6b5cebe8a326c9aa13a_w200-846078870

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“Hey Gemini, why is wayland falling behind Xorg in features?”

I can do this all day. :slightly_smiling_face: Most of the issues is legacy software making broken assumptions - that is, they did the equivalent of using the hidden Microsoft APIs. Not a complete comparison but come on; can you really make the assumption that GPU memory will forever be in unprotected mode?

Did you read that, or did you read it and still think it’s a win? Having a good reason is not the same as having a good design, one is an excuse and the other leads to good execution.

Apparently you cannot read either. I never claimed Wayland is perfect; I just claimed it is better than Xorg. Which it is, for the absolute majority of people.

I run Firefox with Wayland on an RX 6600 with two screens, and I run Gnome 50 which as you might recall is completely xorg free.

Session restore works good enough for me, I get the occasional displaced window but easily fixed since I run only three windows. Annoying but not deal breaking.

And no, sorry, not downgrading my desktop and install a ton of legacy packages just to test something. It works well enough for me and most users.

Just not all users.

Citation needed

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