VLOG: Linux Gaming Experiments Update: Manjaro as a Gaming OS?

That’s called contributing to proton

This is what wine does too, also I’d make the argument that’s NOT what a VM does. The difference between a PC running Linux and a PC running Windows is purely software. I would make the argument that when using a VM you’re not making software think it’s running on Windows but rather, actually running it on Windows. Maybe that’s just me “nitpicking” though.

I’m sorry but did you even read some of my other posts. I’m stating my opinion to a Linux community. I’m not doing this in a windows community being like “this is why Linux sucks”

How much of this is because of proton vs the community of VFIO users? That’s my point.

I get what it takes

I just don’t see VMs as helping, however they are still better than a dual boot.

Doesn’t matter. The important part is having control over it. Which you do in a vm.

Having control over my PC is important but it’s not the only thing that concerns me. Maybe that’s where our perspectives differ. Also might I point out that while yes, you do have control over your PC the little world you cut out for Windows and all the games and any software which resides there is still under the control of MS. A VM doesn’t magically make Windows under your control, it just lets you isolate your lack of control to only affect certain applications.

Yeah, like games. And if you do something else you can spin up another vm to isolate further.

Was there anything else that I missed or is this really just an “ackchyually”-topic?

It wasn’t supposed to be an “actually” topic. I won’t try to match that beautiful spelling lol. I’m stating my honest gripes with it. I don’t think there was anything you missed really. I just don’t think it’s a good solution to improve the situation of Linux gaming and I’ve stated my reasons why I think that.

I use Manjaro on my laptop with a 1060 as it was the only distro I was able to install proprietary Nvidia graphics drivers on in comparison to Ubuntu and any driver at all compared to Fedora where I couldn’t get it done.

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The problem for Multiplayer titles is EAC and Battleye. The problem for Single player titles is Windows Media Foundation in games with unskippable pre-rendered cutscenes.

VFIO does get around the single player issues, but resource and interrupt management where the host is 100% unaffected by heavy load in the guest using UMA on multi-die CPUs is what I want to investigate next, and it looks like with all the Threadripper systems @wendell has, that investigation is for sure coming.

Worst vlog ever, not even one video. You trying to Shanghai me?

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In my mind, VFIO is important because it is currently the missing link. First of all, people just don’t want to dual-boot. That’s been an option for years and it’s hated.

The reason why VFIO is important is because it’s a safety net. I run Manjaro on all my PCs. If I wanted to play a game, or run some software (Adobe), my first attempt will be Wine, Lutris, or Proton. If it doesn’t work, I have one of three choices:

  • Repartition my drive and install Windows, deal with their stupid MBR overwriting GRUB, and reboot every time I want to use it.
  • Spin up a VFIO VM and use the software inside that without giving Windows hardware level access except for one graphics card
  • Not use the software

Yeah, neither of these is a great option. They both take time, they both render the Linux system mostly (or entirely) unusable for the duration, and they both sacrifice privacy. However, the clear advantage to VFIO if you have the hardware to set it up (I happened to), is that I don’t have to reboot. I can spin up and shut down the VM as needed, in about 10 seconds. I can play MP games with my friends as needed. I don’t give Windows access to my hardware, I stay in Linux more because I don’t have to reboot to switch, so it increases the amount of time I’m using Linux, and I don’t have to deal with GRUB getting overwritten.

The fact is there’s no better alternative right now. I will use Proton/Wine in everything that’s acceptable or possible, but not everything is. VFIO is a better solution for the stuff that doesn’t work than a separate Windows install, because it keeps my usage uninterrupted.

No one arguing against VFIO has provided any type of solution to the things that don’t work on it, except for install Windows, which isn’t going to get me to switch to Linux. I switched to Linux once VFIO became feasible, because it’s a fantastic safety net to the things I can’t run natively or with Wine. I love Linux, I spend 95% of my computer time on it. That’s way more than I would be spending if I was dual-booting.

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“GOOD EVENING, ID LIKE TO HAVE AN ARGUMENT PLEASE” lol

Not much I would say wouldn’t cover ground others have covered. I wouldn’t have thought wine/dxvk/lutris would have come as far as they have and it’s truly impressive.

One upon a time there was a spreadsheet program called Lotus 123. It had 99.9% of the spreadsheet market. Microsoft put 10x the developers working round the clock to unseat it and get their foot in the door in businesses with Excel. From Almost the very beginning Excel could open 123 formats.

It wasn’t until Excel 3.0 that Excel could save back to the 123 format. Almost overnight Excel supplanted 123, which was an unexpected result, and meant no one needed the ‘save as 123’ function. And yet it was necessary for the transition from 123 to Excel to be possible. It took < 1 year after this change for Excel usage to surpass 123. In an age before the internet, that’s crazy fast.

This result was so baffling at the time (now obvious) it’s the reason Microsoft did all the FUD stuff with office formats in the 2000s. The office formats are so complex it’s an impossible hill to climb. Even now, 20 years later, open programs struggle with Ms formats (even with open documentation! ) for any complex document.

This study of office formats and how all that went down will play out like replacing windows over the long term, I suspect.

Programming to replace windows is a godawful tarbaby. What if I told you instead of getting in there and getting your hands dirty, doing companies jobs for them attempting to black box port their code to another platform, you could just wrap up the tarbaby in a sandbox and put the ball back in their court to solve? A cync might say that it’s in Microsoft’s best interests for the best and brightest developers to be busy with wine/dxvk/lutris (if they think their overall platform is an equally landmine-laden impossible hill to climb as is their file formats) rather than focusing those developers on shoring up other weaknesses on Linux, as a platform, “native” functionality.

I don’t have to disagree with some of the anti-vfio points but nothing will persuade me that vfio enabling users to ‘save as 123’ will lead to the flashpoint of Linux on the desktop.

With tech like looking Glass leading to not just desktop forwarding but individual app forwarding – this is the future. Especially when the tarbabay gets aggro’d. (Have you even thought about a future where Microsoft becomes Oracle wrt the caselaw precedent Oracle is setting on APIs? Have you noticed how much “Install Visual C++ Runtime from microsoft” WINE requires?)

It will take millions of hours to perfectly reproduce windows insanity in wine/lutris/dxvk and doing that with out software vendor cooperation would be… tricky. We do have valve leaning on their publishers but vfio has already enabled legions of folks to ‘no compromises’ switch to linux on the desktop 100% of the time.

This happened once before – windows terminal services. As computers got more powerful, it became practical to cram a million users onto one box. Cheap thin clients that didn’t need windows popped up. Linux was actually making a lot of headway then – run what you can locally then run what you can’t via terminal services. The best multiplatform of both worlds. Guess what MS did then? “Clarified” that they require a client license on the device connecting to terminal services, in addition to the terminal services license. In business settings, for terminal services. The cost of the software on that client? Same as a windows license, which was free if your client software was windows. Ouch. Shady.

So, long term, I worry that Microsoft still has some sort of legal capability to pull the rug out after a ton of development has been invested. Whereas, legally, any kind of license maneuvering to prevent you from running an unmodified licensed copy of windows in a VM would probably be dimly viewed from an anticompetitive standpoint the reverse – “the heathens stealing our proprietary APIs” (if that were to be the argument from MS) would probably afford ?Microsoft much more legal protection. (Look how far Oracle has got. Scary times right now. )

Either way, interesting times are ahead. Unless Microsoft willingly gives up the desktop OS in favor of massive cloud services profits (which could very well happen) I don’t see the “Year of the Linux Desktop” happening without vfio. (Though I’d welcome it with open arms if it did.)

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Found a new podcast, listened to 2 episodes last night including this one. Guy was surprised how easy it was after hearing all the stuff about Arch. Easy to listen too.
So glad Linux has gone from “The command line is soooo powerful” to “It’s really easy to install and use”

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That and Archlabs are a breeze to install. Manjaro is Linux gaming king right now

On can dream, one can dream

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Why not use Debian Sid? It’s also rolling?

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I can’t neckbeard meme on that, no one says “I use Debian btw”

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I just don’t like needing a Windows license and a Windows EULA to have the year of the Linux desktop. That doesn’t really feel like we’re accomplishing much personally, although I’ve already said all that in earlier posts so I’ll leave it at that.

I’ve pointed this out before but I’ll do it again. install Windows is the VFIO solution anyway, and I wasn’t trying to offer a solution. For me the solution is just suck it up and go without the software, obviously that’s not feasible for some people but that’s personally what I’ve done and I know others that have done the same. Usually we just find a FOSS alternative that does basically everything we need and run with it. I was stating my gripes with VFIO not trying to solve the issue it does.

I don’t think virtualization should negate your challenge, after all what you’re doing is using existing tools to fix certain problems.
And there’s still many instances what windows does better, hence virtual machines/containerization we’re moving towards.

Yes, and I’ve said I think a VM Is better than a dual boot or outright just using Windows. I just want to see Windows leave the equation and a VM doesn’t do that and IMO I don’t see it as helping as much to achieve that as other tools hence my gripes. I do understand for some it might be the only way they’ll use Linux and that’s frustrating because I wish Linux was good enough that they didn’t feel the need for a VM but it’s still better than staying on Windows.

In the future I don’t think the OS would play such a huge role when every ‘app’ is containerized, you can run everything cross-platform.

Atm linux is the forerunner but I’m fairly positive that the trend is gonna shift soon, with ms and apple jumping on the bandwagon.

No it’s not, there’s a distinct difference between installing Windows, and running it in a VM, which I pointed out in my post. One of them involves a running Linux system that can be used without interruption, the other does not.

But that’s not a solution, that’s an avoidance.

Yes it is, you still need a license, you still need to agree to their EULA, you’ve still got the NT kernel, you’ve still got Windows updates, Windows drivers the whole 9 yards, it’s just in a VM. That’s installing Windows, end of story.

It is a solution, I understand not everyone can do that but it is one. Also you said it’s an avoidance? Avoidance of what? Windows, yes it is.