I can’t seem to find the forum post for this video, maybe there isn’t one. So I guess I’ll make a thread for it.
The comment I wanted to make: @wendell you’ve always been a big proponent of gaming on Linux through VFIO but I don’t understand how that even counts. You’re running a full fat Windows VM which is using a full fat Windows NT kernel. That’s not gaming on Linux any more than steam in home streaming from a physical Windows PC is. Yes you’re able to play the game in a window on your Linux desktop but the game isn’t running on the Linux kernel. Anyway just my two cents. On a completely unrelated note the level1 website is broken under NAT64 networks. It appears like you have a AAAA record for the domain but no web server can be reached on the IP listed.
This is true but when 99% of the market doesn’t consider you even as an option to develop for, you have to be creative if you want to play what your friends are playing.
What Wendell recommends is the easiest solution which once set up is stable ( unlike wine / lutris ). This in general can boost the amount of users on Linux and hopefully increasing the market share of the OS. Bringing newer games to the platform.
I really don’t think VFIO is easier to setup for noobs than proton even if proton isn’t perfect. Proton is a 1 click thing even if it doesn’t always work. Setting up a VM is a real pain comparatively so I don’t think virtualization is a market share driver. It also isn’t Linux which brings me back to my original point. You need to buy a windows license for it, why not use windows. With proton steam reports you as a Linux user to the developer which means they can see the Linux growth for themselves. In a VM you might as well be on Windows. That doesn’t help Linux adoption at all.
Proton is compatible ( for now ) with what like 30-50 games flawlessly ? ( talking platinum rating )
I am not saying it’s a bad thing. It is good but it is limited at the moment.
Most online players are in League of legends, Fortnite and Apex Legends. Neither of which could run under proton right now. All of them will run under VFIO.
I would have to ask what you mean by real pain. While you have to follow way more complicated tutorials it is by no means painful. It takes a few tries and maybe asking in our forum for help to figure it out. And again once set up you are golden everything just works.
Yeah get the biggest titles to release for Linux before it has a userbase and we will speak again on that topic. If my games are not on Linux I will login on Windows to play with friends.
Windows ISO could be downloaded from microsoft for free and paid at a later date. You decide when and if.
Can you check the figures again. Linux has been on those 0.7-0.9% of the userbase in the last 5 years. Proton is soon to make 1 year and Steam has ported over 3k games to Linux. Didn’t drive the % too much did it ?
While your gaming will be on Windows with a VM everything else you do would be on Linux. Just that will improve the society, those people could report OS/Programs/UI bugs and glitches, give ideas for new features and maybe even help with development and documentation. Helping Linux in general to become a better OS.
Linux has to have arguments over Windows for people to switch ( and telemetry is not one of them, most people don’t care about privacy ). And when people cant have the same entertainment as they have in Windows why even switch to Linux in the first place.
I think comparing a VM to console emulation is a bit of a stretch. They serve different purposes. People use emulators to play older games. Yes there are emulators for newer stuff but they don’t work nearly as well as the emulators for older consoles. If your only goal is to play Windows games on your Linux desktop then a Windows VM is a perfectly valid solution. If you want to see a future where a VM isn’t required, if you want to see Linux adoption expand and grow then I think a VM is a short sighted solution that makes software compatibility pain free without actually removing Windows. Running Windows in a VM is no better than just running Windows. You still need a license, you need an extra GPU, game developers see you as a Windows user, the Windows kernel is still ultimately running your game, Linux is out of the equation. Might as well use VMWare. Gaming in a VM isn’t about gaming on Linux it’s about gaming on Windows without it being bound to your hardware.
Everything just works because your on Windows, not Linux, might as well dual boot, everything works that way too.
And you think virtualization will do better? I don’t see how that’ll happen
Yeah but that’s my point, I’m not arguing that you’re not using Linux. I’m arguing that you’re not gaming on Linux and while that might be good for the Linux ecosystem it’s not much different than a really fancy dual boot.
What’s funny about it ? Yes if any title my friends play is not available on linux I am logging in either via VM or hardware in Windows. The thing is if I log in on hardware I might as well stay in it. Linux barely provides anything more than Windows for my entertainment in my free time. So just like me most people would leave because there is nothing more Linux provides.
Oh good it supports 800 games out of which barely any is played by more than 1000 people.
This is a picture of top 1000 of steam. 8% is 80 games.
If I dual boot might as well never boot to Linux as everything works in Windows. You see where my point about VM’s stands ?
I am not saying VM’s are a replacement for proton, they are just another tool to help increase the amount of users on Linux.
Yeah and that’s the problem in your vision. You want everything to be pure. You have problem with people on Linux who game in a VM and you are ready to throw them under the bus and make them leave Linux for Windows only so you can say that “we are finally gamin on linux bois”
I don’t see how it will drive usage among anyone more than power users
Lol, no Wine is hardly pure. I firmly stand in the “No tux no bucks” crowd and REFUSE to buy games to play them in proton. I HATE wine with a passion. I HATED it when valve released proton. The thing is while I don’t want to admit it, Wine is a necessary evil and while I don’t like it, and while I avoid it. I still use proton as a selling point to all of my Windows friends. Toting how great it is and how well some of the games I see them playing often work. A VM is just too far, you’re not getting away from Windows at that point, and it’s not even more user friendly than proton, I’d argue it’s less and that’s why I don’t see any advantage or use for it other than among power users who want to use Windows for gaming and Linux for everything else. I can understand the appeal of that but I want to see Linux be the gaming platform of the future, not Windows on Linux. I’m not trying to drive away Linux users I’m just stating my opinion and believe me if someone told me a VM is the ONLY way they’d switch to Linux I’d support it over pure Windows. I’m stating my grudges with it and would not actively harm Linux’s adoption for the sake of those grudges. However I have yet to see anyone other than the level1 community see any advantage or place for VFIO for real Linux gaming. Most of the Linux world seems to be behind proton which while I still hate I think it’s at least a good market share driver. That’s something I can’t say about VMs so please don’t put words in my mouth.
You’re nitpicking. You’re splitting hairs because of the phrases being used.
Just because your definition of something is what it is, it doesn’t mean that it makes a difference. The fact remains, that jumping through hoops and bounds makes progress. Jumping through hoops and bounds makes AMD, Nvidia, Intel, game and software devs develop more and more for the Linux platforms because they see the dedication from an ever increasing base of players. If you’re salty because your definition of Linux Gaming is different than mine, that’s your problem and it doesn’t move us any closer to any of the solutions we’re striving towards. Rather contribute to a solution than point out flaws. Flaws are a dime a 100. Solutions are scarce and complex.
Also, emulators for “the new stuff” don’t work nearly as well because the requirements for games are pretty demanding and running a game through an emulator even more so. That’s why it took over half a decade to build a good PS3/Xbox360 emulator for PCs when the consoles first came out. It was basically waiting for better components.
Increasingly higher specs for consoles make emulators more and more demanding to run on PCs. I’ve yet to see a PS4/Xbox1 emulator. Can you guess why?
My real point with that was I don’t think they can be compared because they serve different purposes. Also AMD, nVidia, and Intel are going driver crazy because of Proton. They don’t need to do anything for VM support, that’s been done in their Windows driver for ages, game devs don’t see the VM community, to them they might as well be Windows users so I hardly think they to take notice of that. They also don’t need to do anything to support a VM. With proton at least they might go out of their way to get it running their even if they don’t go whole hog for a native port. That’s good, that means they see Linux, a VM is no different than a dual boot.
I do agree power users would be more inclined to try things like virtual machines. But imagine in the next 5 years some of those power users who decide to switch to linux actually make a one click install of a Virtual machine. Would that be something that you would recommend to friends ?
The thing is we have to live with it. We are not the driving force of the market and our voices wont get heard. That’s why we need tools like Wine to try and make a “fix” for our situation.
I think that we should look for new members that like linux and are using it for what it is and not because they want to get out of windows.
As I stated before main advantages are -
better game support
better stability once setup
not having to log out every time you want to play with friends
Well the thing is here we a lot of users are using it in day to day activities. Even working with it and using programs like the Adobe suite, or engineering programs like Solidworks.
I’d recommend any Linux solution to my friends however there are some I like more than others. Currently VMs are more cumbersome, require a Windows license or if nothing else a EULA, and you don’t actually get away from Windows. As I said, I’d already recommend it if it was the only way to get them to switch but I still don’t like it especially compared to more native solutions like proton.
Yep, I’ve said as much myself
Yeah, and I do see it as new Linux users. What I struggle with is the fact that at least with Proton it’s a half way point. It’s not native but it’s close, it runs on the real Linux kernel without relying on virtualization and it uses your real Linux drivers. That makes driver vendors more inclined to really work on their Linux drivers which can go completely ignored with a VM. It also reports you as a Linux user which gives devs better vision to the Linux player base, something VMs still won’t do. Even with a one click solution like you proposed earlier I don’t see how that stuff will change unless valve adopts VM technology into steam? That’d be weird. It also still doesn’t let you escape from Windows licensing. Wine/Proton is FOSS and that’s amazing.
Yes, you have but my point was it’s more cumbersome and doesn’t help the Linux gaming community, just gets more users on Linux which is good but I want to help the Linux gaming community too.
Yeah, and for professional stuff Wine is basically useless currently, that’s an entirely different conversation for another day lol. I’m also less passionate about that than I am gaming. That stuff I think the real solution is good FOSS alternatives not necessarily ports of existing utilities. Again, different conversation.
I can agree with that statement. I guess for me personally I draw the cut off point at Native games for purchases and Proton for games I already own. I get your point now, I’m still not convinced it’s the right way to go but it is better than running Windows exclusively and I that appears to be your point to so I think we understand each other now? Maybe lol.
Maybe. But they function in similar ways. In a VM, you’re allocating resources to run an operating system. Resources in an emulator are already allocated, whether your system can run them or not.
An emulator makes the game think it’s running in an environment that it isn’t actually in.
What does a VM do? Emulates a hardware platform so that you can run your OS of choice to run apps, games, whatever else on hardware you don’t have. I agree there’s a distinction but again, you’re splitting hairs.
Your view of how and what helps, and what doesn’t, isn’t realistic.
If I’m a carpenter and I see a man chopping down a tree with a knife and using duct tape to make a ladder and some furniture, I’m not going to go get him more duct tape and a knife sharpener and feel sorry for him because “That’s the state carpentry is in right now.” I’m going to develop and provide him with the platform and deliver him a god damn product he wants to have and save him money and time.
And that’s what it’s about. It’s not about the damn VMs and Proton and whatever else. It’s about being vocal and making the vendors and developers know that “THERE’S DEMAND FOR THIS PLATFORM, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT”
And if you think they don’t care, that’s on you. But you’re wrong. The dev support is ever increasing and getting better every day. Progress is slow, because there’s little to no money in it, but there’s still progress.
But you providing negative feedback on the wrong things isn’t making you a helper of Linux gaming. It’s making you look like a nitpicker and obnoxious. There’s progress in jumping through hoops and bounds and you don’t seem to get how it gets from a to b and what that takes.
edit to add: It took me longer than I wanted to, to write this post, and if I were to do it again, I’d simply say this: There are many paths to a single goal and different people take different ones. But the goal is still the same: Expressing the need to get proper support for the systems we use. It’s as simple as that. And if Nvidia (for example) is being a dick about it, and they are, that’s on them, but we’ll try and find another way until they stop being dicks and start hearing our voices.
Yes that is my point. Now we understand each other
Yeah and this is the point of Wendell making those videos. As you noted there aren’t many other places than here that promote VFIO for gaming on linux. That’s why Wendell makes those videos so people can find alternative even for games that don’t run on linux with the tools we have.
He also has videos on proton and native gaming. The thing is a lot of people are making videos about those topics and those things are well known unlike VFIO.
