Need to sanity check my portable server build (H470, 11600K)

Hardware Hub Build a PC
1

About Me

After my last post about building things in a server rack, I’ve come to the conclusion that going rack mount is a bigger pain, both in obtaining parts, energy consumption, noise profile and international travel and perhaps I should re-evaluate my approach.

One of my first posts on this forum was whether to go and buy a new computer, that post had me severely future-proofing and trying to come up with ways to keep my old 1800X system usable.

Since then, things have changed. I purchased a Synology DS220+ and 2x4TB IronWolf NAS drives and found that I actually enjoyed not tinkering with things all the time, unlike the WD NAS that annoyed the living hell outta me as I tried to load Synology firmware on it as WD’s firmware is garbage and shit kept breaking.

I realized I need something that gives me the flexibility of the DS220+ (well, more like Synology’s software solution) and at the same time saves me from myself. My DS220+ is becoming less and less suitable for me as it is becoming the family NAS and I’m hogging too much space on it, so it’s clear I need my own storage device.

I also need faster speeds so that my work computer contains next to zero personal data and I can work off the NAS 24x7 (my reasons involve basically wanting to abstract filesystem specifics away by isolating my work computer from my storage computer, I don’t wanna tinker with filesystem drivers anymore*, been there, done that).

I’ve held my breath for the 2022 Mac Pro and it never arrived, that was back when I was still thinking rack mount is the way to go. Now since Apple products are cheaper overseas, I figured I’ll go and pick one up when it launched (this was me daydreaming before WWDC happened) but then I realized, bringing a Mac Pro to my home country would be a logistical pain the ass at best so the Mac Studio is the only way to go (this is basically where I started looking away from rack mounted systems to SFF computers)

So, I’m going Mac Studio. Alright, that’s my main computer covered. But if the Mac Studio craps out, I can’t have the on-board SSD hold me at gunpoint. So, I need a computer as fast as my current 1800X. Well, that machine can be my storage machine and the emergency setup can be a hackintosh within QEMU and we can give it a virtual disk.

Since, all my personal data will be on the storage machine and the storage machine will be hosting Time Machine backups of my Mac Studio, I can just restore from that and get on like nothing happened (kinda, this sounds like too good a plan so something’ll fuck up, I’m sure)

So, the Mac Studio has shipping delays but I can at least start migrating all my data to a storage SFF machine. So, let’s try and sanity check that.

* - I’m going BTRFS with 2x4TB M.2 SSDs and 2x4TB M.2 2.5" drives in RAID10. I want out of EXT4 vs NTFS vs APFS schenanigans, I’m done with it all (and no, exFAT is not a valid option)

The Build

  • Built with the ASRock H470W DeskMIni kit
  • Intel Core i5-11600K
  • Noctua NH-L9i CPU Cooler (92mm)
  • Kingston KVR32S22D8/32 32GB DDR4 3200Mhz Non-ECC SODIMM Memory
  • Intel AX210.NGWG WiFi card
  • Samsung 870 EVO 4TB SATA SSD (x2)
  • Sabrent 4TB Rocket Q4 NVMe PCIe 4.0 M.2 2280 (x2)

The Accessories

  • Whatever 64GB USB3.0 flash drive I can find to hold the boot OS
  • OWC Thunderbolt 3 10G Ethernet Adapter (I can’t find a USB3.1 Gen2 Ethernet Adapter and the H470W doesn’t have Thunderbolt nor does it possess the ability to hold a Thunderbolt card so I’m at a loss here)

The Problems

  • The NH-L9i has flexing issues (source) and the ID Cooling IS-40X isn’t sold near me.
  • 10Gbps Ethernet needs Thunderbolt and the H470W doesn’t have that and nor can I expand to give it that support. This is something I’m using to try and get the most out of my flash-based storage system.
  • The H470W needs a BIOS flash in order to get 11th Gen support and I’m not sure how I’m supposed to do that without first spending money on a 10th Gen chip just to flash firmware and then return it back? Seems quite sketch.

As I was typing this post out, I realized this build doesn’t match my sanity check, let alone me sourcing an opinion from a forum full of experienced hobbyists and professionals but I don’t know where to go from here. Any help would be appreciated!

2

Seems like only five coolers can be made to fit (including variants). You might need to dremel some of them slightly. Pick your poison:

Yeah, unfortunately a side effect of Apple loving walled gardens and money too much. MAYBE there is a thunderbolt → USB C adapter? Or 10/5/2.5 GbE → USB C?

True, although the cheapest guaranteed supported CPU available is only $45, so I would go ahead and risk that BIOS is updated and deal with the problem later if it isn’t.

Alternative solution

If you still feel there are too many compromises, The In Win Chopin offers a lot of options here, including a low profile PCIe extension card, at the cost of a larger footprint and $100 more you get a lot more customization and lose pretty much no features.

Footprint difference:

Chassi Width Depth Height Volume Vol. Diff
Asrock Deskmini H470 155 mm 155 mm 80 mm 1.92 L 100%
In Win Chopin 244 mm 217 mm 86 mm 4.55 L 237%

Here is an equivalent build with that Chassi to what you want to do, note that it does have built in thunderbolt, and allows for some expansion as well including adding 10 GbE or 2 more NVMe drives.

In Win Chopin SFF NAS

Type Item Price
CPU Intel Core i5-11600K $214.89
CPU Cooler Noctua NH-L9i $44.95
Motherboard ASRock Z490 Phantom Gaming-ITX/TB3 $232.00
Memory TEAMGROUP T-FORCE VULCAN Z 2x16 GB 3200 CL16 $91.99
Storage Sabrent Rocket Q4 4 TB NVME $589.99
Storage Sabrent Rocket Q4 4 TB NVME $589.99
Storage Samsung 870 Evo 4 TB 2.5" SSD $429.99
Storage Samsung 870 Evo 4 TB 2.5" SSD $429.99
Case In Win Chopin $99.00
Power Supply Silverstone Gold Flex ATX 350W $97.99
Total $2815.58

Problems left to solve: BIOS may not be new enough. If this is the case, this particular board definitely supports the $30 Intel Celeron G5900. I hope that helped!

2 Likes
3

It’s possible that something might’ve been lost in translation but I meant to say that I want to bridge the Mac Studio with the SFF storage computer with 10Gbps Ethernet.

According to ASRock’s website, there is a USB 3.2 Gen2 Type-A port on the front of the H470W and according to a SuperUser Stack Exchange answer (source), there seem to be guarantees that Thunderbolt provides that the USB standard doesn’t explicitly provide, specifically dealing with power.

Thunderbolt 3’s theoretical throughput is 40Gbps (source) while for USB 3.2 Gen2 it is 20Gbps (source) and I don’t know the mechanations of how high-performance USB-to-Ethernet adapters work but judging by the differences between what the H470W has and what the 10GbE adapter needs, I can’t seem to dongle my way out of this one.

If I stick with the H470W, 10GbE seems no dice. Is that okay? Will my RAID10 even be able to saturate a 10GbE connection?

I like your alternative solution, thanks for taking the time to build one up! It’s much appreciated. I went with a 2xSATA and 2xNVME approach to accommodate for the H470, so I’m not married to SATA vs NVME.

The volume difference is steep between the Deskmini and the Chopin and while compactness is a huge priority for me, I’m asking miracles here so I’m not sure if I get to complain. I’m asking for a machine that’s basically an external storage drive in terms of performance with the reliability of a server. So perhaps I can’t complain.

I thought about getting a QNAP and the volume of its closest 10GbE solution is not compact enough in my books, not to mention, I forfeit all my other goals.

I’m divided, honestly. On one hand, I’m giving away compactness for guaranteed 10GbE with an expansion card, on the other hand, I’m not even sure if I’ll be able to saturate 10GbE (some napkin math seems to suggest based on sequential read-write speeds alone extrapolated for RAID10, that I’ll be able to) and really value the compactness.

I guess my obsession with compactness is only limited to travel-friendliness. Do you think the Chopin is travel-friendly? If I have to buy a mini-ITX case anyways instead of a barebones kit, what other options do I available?

At this point it’s not a “quick and dirty” build, it’s a full build :stuck_out_tongue:

4

The Chopin should be easy to fit inside a suitcase, though you’d need a large backpack to fit it in. I did suggest it because it is the smallest widely available case I know of. If you are willing to take this further for more premium sm0l cases, I have a few more suggestions:

J-Hack Pure

  • Smallest brickless (as in, no laptop charger) case I know of
  • Fits an ITX board
  • Just enough room for 2x SSD (if you use the NH-L9i)
  • Fits a low profile extension board
  • Custom PSU
  • Can only power 200W - the 11600K require 250W+ unfortunately

J-Hack Pure X

  • Same idea as the J-Hack Pure, but fits a bigger PSU
  • Better cooling options (up to 67mm, 58 if 2 SSD)
  • Would work for your use case
  • Slightly bigger

Velka 5

  • A little bit bigger still
  • Supports 4 (!) SATA drives
  • Also allows 4 extra m.2
  • … Or, 2 extra m.2 and a 10 GB ethernet with 4.0 bifurb cable

Let’s expand our table with the new options, too:

Chassi Width Depth Height Volume Vol. Diff
Asrock Deskmini H470 155 mm 155 mm 80 mm 1.92 L 100%
J-Hack Pure 250.5 mm 190 mm 66 mm 3.1 L 164%
J-Hack Pure X 258 mm 191 mm 87 mm 4.3 L 223%
In Win Chopin 244 mm 217 mm 86 mm 4.55 L 237%
Velkase Velka 5 288 mm 177 mm 99 mm 5,04 L 263%

And finally, here is the same Chopin build but with a slightly more optimised AMD Ryzen 5600 + B550 board that, well, just has that much better of a power footprint (174W, fits comfortably in 200W limit):

In Win Chopin SFF NAS 5600

Type Item Price
CPU AMD Ryzen 5 5600 $179.99
CPU Cooler Noctua NH-L9a-AM4 $44.95
Motherboard Gigabyte B550I AORUS PRO AX $189.99
Memory TEAMGROUP T-FORCE VULCAN Z 2x16 GB 3200 CL16 $91.99
Storage Sabrent Rocket Q4 4 TB M.2 NVME $589.99
Storage Sabrent Rocket Q4 4 TB NVME $589.99
Storage Samsung 870 Evo 4 TB 2.5" SSD $429.99
Storage Samsung 870 Evo 4 TB 2.5" SSD $429.99
Case In Win Chopin $99.00
Power Supply Silverstone Gold 350W Flex ATX $97.99
Total $2743.87

Oh, for sure, that is just normal. It is always a tradeoff between money, size and features. Pick two. :slight_smile:

1 Like
5

Sorry for the late reply, life got in the way. I also started to do some research on how I could potentially achieve data transfers beyond just using Ethernet and the results have been… abysmal.

I thought there would be hope with USB-to-USB transfer cables but they seem to rely on vendor-specific software and I couldn’t find any that are USB 3.1 let alone USB 3.2 Gen2. WiFi 6, for all its merits, is still not a physical copper cable.

I was willing to concede and say, alright, perhaps due to overhead of the filesystem, on-disk encryption, networking (Samba, NFS, whatever), 10Gbps real-world bandwidth is not going to happen and perhaps I can make do with a 5GbE USB 3.2 Gen2.

Nope.

I can’t find one that is sold at all near me. I’m not even sure if it exists. Maybe it’s my weak Google-fu but I can’t find it.

The Inwin Chopin felt like a compromise but that’s apparently because I didn’t know what the average dimensions of SFF cases sold near me were. The nearest affordable SFF case I can buy is 10L.

The Inwin is, compared to that, more compact than I could ever ask for.

One problem, it isn’t sold here.

That’s a recurring theme, I checked all the alternatives you suggested, each of them looking like good options, none of them sold here. All the alternatives I could find on the local Amazon (and local retailers I trust) are more akin to Micro-ATX cases for media PCs than really SFF NUC-style cases, so it appears I’m cornered.

So, now what?

6

Hmm, let’s start at that end then, what is your home country / continent, and what are you willing to pay for shipping?

I think you have two options here, go cheap with a NUC with something like the H70W, or go boutique with something like the J-Hack Pure. J-Hack ships worldwide as far as I know, but yes, it does cost you a pretty penny especially in the current world and climate.

As for 10 GbE, why not simply a dual-port low profile PCIe 10 GbE card? That would fit the Pure XL for sure.

Also - maybe a two or three stage rocket could work? Start with a regular box and downsize all components as you move along.

7

I’m willing to pay for shipping, I’m not willing to pay for duty (something that can go from 50% to 100%). Though, even if I was willing to pay the steep charges incurred, they still don’t ship them here because they’re not in stock.

I could go with a NUC but they don’t fit enough storage for my needs and I don’t know if RAID10 is the “expandable” type where I can just slot in more drives and call it a day. (I need to move a ton of stuff out of all the various storage mediums I have lying around the house)

I want to avoid a stage rocket approach as I already have leftover PSUs, network cards and a pretty good case in my house. I can’t sell them as there isn’t a mature used market and I was contemplating building a computer in them and gifting them just so that they don’t sit and collect dust while doing nothing.

EDIT: After doing some more Google-fu, it turns out, I can buy the Inwin Chopin for a little under two times the price (still cheaper if I were to import it myself so I’ll let it slide) but I can’t get a reliable Flex ATX power supply… from anyone. There are a few no-name ones but I’m not trusting my (as of now) master copy of all my personal data to a shady no-name power supply.

Further Google-fu also shown me the existence of the QNA-UC5G1T which would meet my 5GbE needs (despite it costing about as much as a 10GbE Thunderbolt adapter).

With these new discoveries, the H470W seems to be solidifying as the base system of choice.

1 Like
8

Have you considered looking for some entry level prebuilt business computer from Dell/HP/Fujitsu/Lenovo etc and just add what you need?

9

Have you considered looking for some entry level prebuilt business computer from Dell/HP/Fujitsu/Lenovo etc and just add what you need?

@diizzy, They’re still not SFF enough to be put into a backpack or suitcase. The entire obsession with small form factor and litre-to-litre optimization is precisely for that reason alone.

@wertigon, the suggestion for using the Silverstone Gold 350W Flex ATX seems to be wishy-washy at best. I was doing some additional research and it appears that Inwin uses a proprietary form factor that is kind of a mix between TFX and Flex ATX (source, source) and people have reported success with using Inwin’s 200W offerings, which, considering I’ve bought the Chopin (non-Pro) for the not cheap sum of $205 as I don’t have any other options, I don’t think I’ll have much luck buying their other offerings.

But wait, what happened to the H470? Well, the folks who claimed they had it in stock called me and said “oh, it was out of stock months ago and is discontinued by the manufacturer so we don’t plan on restocking it again, oopsie”

So I went to the (only) second supplier and called them before placing an order and they said “they’ll get back to me in three days” and three hours later, I get a call telling me “we have 12 people who have this on backorder and we have no ways to fulfill half those orders, let alone yours, this SKU is sunset and so we will not be restocking, we’re meeting demand currently by containing our partners and asking them to send us any remaining stock back to us”.

Apparently the second seller had some exclusivity deal when it comes to selling the H470 so all sellers apparently report to them and if they told me they’re out, they’re out.

Well… fuck. I had to start a cancellation spree for SODIMMs and the i5 cause well… I bought them with the H470’s limitations in mind. Now I need to wait for refunds to arrive before I can re-allocate that money elsewhere.

Now I have a Gigabyte Z590I Vision D as my motherboard and an i9-11900 (non-K) as my chip of choice. I figured if I have to sink that much money into the motherboard, I might as well give it a chip that can make the best of it.

I’m going with the non-K variant because the 65W TDP is important there due to Inwin’s proprietary form factor and it coming with only 150W delivery.

So, here’s the update… I’m sleepy…

10

Ouch, well that sucks then. Here’s hoping you can resolve that, maybe a meanwell PSU could work?

11

I wanted a simple build, I’m not wiring my own PSU, I’m barely competent enough to build a computer, forget wiring the stuff that powers it.

I’m having cold feet after having placed the order for the Chopin cause apparently their PSUs are known to have loud fans (don’t care) and have the tendency to pop unexpectedly (very much care) with replacements being expensive and you’re essentially at Inwin’s mercy as it’s a non-standard form factor.

J-Hack is out of stock entirely while the Velka 5 with the PCIe riser and PSU (which is Flex ATX and is well reviewed) costs $488.62 including shipping, not including duty (duty would essentially double the price), so this is now entering the “fuck this, I’m out” territory.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA and I already placed the order for the Chopin AAAAAAAAA

12

Well you might be in luck, the Chopin Pro is supposed to have the 200W unit else it is just the regular Chopin.

Meanwells aren’t THAT much worse than Flex ATX, still dealing with Molex cables just need to be extra careful which cable goes where.

If you live in Europe maybe the Lazer3D cases att $150-$200 could be good enough. They are another step up at 7.5 liters, but you can fit stuff almost guaranteed. Loque Ghost is another contender at the $300 price point. It isn’t too shabby if the case is going to be kept at least 5 years, though SFX PSUs are more expensive.

Like I said before, cheap, small, performant. Pick two.

13

That’s the problem, I’m not from Europe, I’m from South Asia, where the duty makes the effective price double. The Chopin Pro isn’t sold here at all, by anyone, with the only choice being importing it myself (there is nobody willing to handle customs and shipping themselves, the Chopin’s seller does that)

The Loque Ghost seems like a saving grace, it’s ~8.5 litres but beggars can’t be choosers and I’m at my wit’s end. The Inwin is too risky. I’ve placed a cancel request (see a theme going on here?) and it’s up to them to accept it. If they do, I’ll go with the Ghost, if they don’t then I’ll stick with the Chopin and hope I don’t get fucked too hard.

14

Hmm, I have seen a few Asian cases make the rounds over at smallformfactor.net. Like the Sparrow MQ5. Problem is that we are now leaving commodity market completely, many of these cases have years to wait and usually are funded by kickstarters.

You might find something useful over there but it requires a lot of lurking and digging. Your time and money though!

15

My current build has undergone a lot of evolution these past few days so I thought I’ll give you an update as how it’s going.

Part Name Standard Pricing Local Pricing Notes
Chassis LOUQE Ghost S1 Mk III $365.00 (source) $351.56 Genius suggestion that came in clutch. Thanks @wertigon! <3
Cooling NOCTUA NH-L9i chromax.Black CPU Air Cooler $54.95 (source) $65.69 I prefer the Noctua brown, tbh
Processor Intel Core i9-11900K $364.99 (source) $441.92 Going to be limited to a 95W TDP in BIOS.

The 11900K was cheaper than the 11600 non-K variant for reasons I do not understand.
Storage Sabrent 4TB Rocket Q4 NVMe PCIe Gen4 SB-RKTQ4-HTSS-4TB $599.99 (source) $755.07 The retailer informed me that the Rocket Q4 is out of stock so we’re talking this one out as we speak
Storage Samsung 870 Evo 4TB 2.5″ SATA III 6GB/s V-NAND SSD MZ-77E4T0BW $448.99 (source) $508.60 Quantity: 3
Memory Patriot Memory Viper Steel Series DDR4 32GB (PVS432G360C8) $125.99 (source) $188.70 Quantity: 2
Power Supply Corsair SF600 Platinum Fully Modular Power Supply, 80+ Platinum $144.99 (source) $141.54 The 600W variant for some reason was cheaper than the 450W variant
Motherboard Gigabyte Z590I VISION D (rev. 1.0) $220.97 (source) $380.48 Amazon US lists this for $299.00 (source)
External Networking QNAP USB 3.0 to 5GbE Adapter (QNA-UC5G1T) $135.73 (source) $161.60 Bought this while assuming the old specification, non-cancellable
Total $3485.57 $4201.06 ~20% difference in price, amounting to $715.49

I’ll be honest, I made this to see how much I’m paying compared to American/Canadian folks and considering that 20% isn’t that egregious considering import tax can be anywhere from 40% to 75% and a round trip from where I live to LAX is $563.33, this ain’t so bad.

I was expecting to be salty today but I walk out happier!

1 Like
16

This topic was automatically closed 273 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.