i just make the comparison because the cameras at my work are absolute ass i couldn't tell a face unless they looked directly at the camera basically standing still
and shit he went through all that trouble for what 14$ fat pants
Hi,
I saw one of your posts on Zoneminder. How do you find it?
If I wanted around 4 cameras (~720p) with motion detection, what specifications would you recommend? (Ubuntu)
I would have ethernet + electricity from a near by electrical outlet. One of the cameras would be using wifi.
Any good/compatible cameras around $100 CAD?
thx
Zoneminder is a very good open source program, it's not flashy and has a very simple interface, but it does require a Linux LAMP server to run on, that being said I like it with the exception of configuring cameras, the newest version just came out a week or so ago (V1.30) and I haven't upgraded to it (running 1.29) but it is suppose to kinda' ease the configuration of some cameras that are Onvif complian.
I use a mix of Trendnet and Hikvision IP PoE cameras and they are easy to configure using the RSTP protocol (basically you need to know the path of the data stream and how many streaming channels the camera is outputting) but the program does what it is suppose to do, has a pretty dedicated team working on the code at the moment (hasn't always been the case), currently I have 12 cameras running 10 in motion detect and 2 as monitors and it has no problem handling the load.
As for $100 cameras yeah both of the companies I mentioned above that I use have cameras that start around $90 USD a search on Newegg that is limited to those two companies and IP PoE and filtered starting with the lowest price will turn a bunch of the up I like the Trendnet TVIP320's they are a decent bullet camera for around $100 in fact I just ordered a 2 pack of them this morning for $189 (I'm in the process of adding cameras to my system).
I would recommend a PoE switch and PoE IP cameras it is the easiest, safest, and quickest way to get the system up and running, WiFi is really a waste, it isn't secure and is easily defeated, it has limited range and quality outside, inside they are fine but outside I wouldn't waste my time or money on anything WiFi security related....just my opinion.
One thing is that if you buy Trendnet cameras they come with free Windows based monitoring software that will control up to 32 cameras, it's a nice program that will run on just about any Windows box, if you didn't need a DVR or a dedicated Linux LAMP box you would save that money and be able to just buy a PoE switch connect it to your network and use the free software.
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Thank you for writing this thorough explanation!
I am planning to just use ethernet and NOT PoE.
All the cameras will be indoors, looking outside.
Cameras will hook up to my Ethernet wall outlets that go to my switch.
What hardware is needed for zoneminder vs. the proprietary Trendnet software?
would going with NVRs that connect to my non-Poe switch be an easy simple solution?
thx
Of course regular IP cameras will require a source for power at every camera to provide the 12v dc that powers the cameras, if all are inside then WiFi would be the simplest method to connect them as long as the network WiFi gateway can handle the volume of traffic without any latency.
As for hardware for Zoneminder it is more what is required for a LInux LAMP server (which is basically a web server that houses a database) this link should answer your question.
I have no experience using a NVR but I would think it is basically PnP and a small amount of configuration to get it on the network and the cameras using it for storage.
The Trendnet software runs a server on top of the windows host that handles all the camera stuff, all you would need is a dedicated hard drive like the WD purple drives and of course the computer will have to be on 24-7/365, but that is the same for the Linux box also, I'm not sure about the NVR but I would think that would just have to be on...like I said I have no experience using one.
This might answer some of your NVR questions..
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Thanks again.
I will start taking a look at the options from here. :)
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Thanks for the heads up. I looking at picking up a quad core PC. Is zone minder hard to setup for someone like me who is inexperienced with Linux?
Are you using Ubuntu?
Thanks for the reply, appreciate it.
I know you didn't ask me but....lol
Yes using Ubuntu server, in my case I'm using v14.x and installing the server is easy, you just follow the prompts and choose LAMP server during the install.
You can get the server software here...
http://www.ubuntu.com/download/server
Following this Wiki will get Zoneminder installed...
https://wiki.zoneminder.com/Ubuntu_Server_14.04_64-bit_with_Zoneminder_1.28.0_the_easy_way
(just copy and paste the commands into the CLI)
The above guide is for a older version of Ubuntu and Zoneminder but it is the same commands and procedures.
This link will provide info for the latest versions of Ubuntu and Zoneminder...
http://zoneminder.readthedocs.io/en/stable/installationguide/ubuntu.html#easy-way-ubuntu-16-04
If you go this route I can't stress enough that you make sure the cameras you buy are compatible with ZM, a list of known working cameras can be found here.
https://wiki.zoneminder.com/Hardware_Compatibility_List#Network_Cameras
I would suggest reading through this list and finding cameras that work easily since it's your first time and there is a slight learning curve. If you choose say a camera like D-Link (as a example) and scroll through the models notice the differences in the settings for ZM also notice the differences in things like ports/paths/and protocols used by the different models to provide a data stream, all of this is important info to learn and understand before buying cameras that you will be using, after you figure that portion out you can use the info to select the right camera model that will fit your price range, be easy to setup, and work with ZM.
Good luck.
(if I remember I'll try to post a couple screen shots of my ZM system over the weekend to this thread.)
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Thanks for your time to reply. The zone minder setup and especially the camera setup looks a bit complicated for a first time Linux user.
How does Blue Iris stack up to zone minder?
Currently, I am planning to have 4 cameras. One of which is going to be located at my front enterance. However, if I want to go wired I would have to
1. Have a PoE injector from my office ,run ethernet through the wall
2. Once outside the house, the Ethernet would run under my flowerbed and to the front enterance
Another option is to just have the camera sit on my window inside my house. Not sure if it's worth the hassle
I have a budget of around $120 CAD for the cameras.
Well...BI isn't really free from what I understand at least the full version, it is slicker in the UI and better looking but of course that is to be expected...
A lot of reviews can be read here...
Not really, if you understand the fundamentals of a "path" which is no different than the path to a file in windows then it's just syntax that you have to learn, a case in point the two new cameras I told you I ordered came in yesterday and it took me longer to un-box them than it took to configure them in ZM. (I always configure new cameras and test run them before hanging them outside, most of my installs require working off of a extension ladder so I want to eliminate going up and down the ladder as much as possible)
But it's not that hard and there is plenty of documentation available, when I set my system up a year and a half ago I was a Linux noob, if your not in a huge hurry learn the CLI and aptitude commands, if not just follow one of the guides posted around the internet....it's not a big deal.
All doable depending on how handy you are with hand tools, I would not run Cat5e under ground unless in conduit, it's just as easy to go up to the soffit and run the cable there all the way around to your front entrance, you are limited to a total length of about 325' for each run of Cat5e before you would suffer signal loss.
I hope that is per camera......$120 isn't going to get you but one camera, but keep in mind if you plan ahead you can add and grow your system, I started with 4 cameras and after this weekend will have 14 up and running, my end goal is somewhere between 16-20 cameras when I'm finished, we have a 1/2 acre lot with 3 buildings I need to cover along with two driveways. The thing is once you have one camera up you will find the want/and need for more, I originally though I could cover everything with 14 cameras but as I expand the system over time I find blind spots and areas I want to cover that I hadn't thought about...but I've been working and building my system for a year and a half and it'll be another year before it is complete because of the cost I can't just go out and buy everything at once but I planned ahead and when I bought my first switch (PoE) I bought a big 24 port that has 24 powered PoE ports, then we built a new pole building/garage this year and I dug a trench to it and installed another 12 port PoE switch there to keep from having to run every feed back to the original switch....my only point is planning is key when it comes to hardware, if you own your own home and are installing there it increases the value of the property (because your not taking it with you if you sell) and decreases a little of your insurance cost with some companies.
If you rent then it's a different ball game because you need to be able to have a semi-portable system that you can remove and take with you to your next residence.
Just plan it out and take your time, don't scrimp, and leave yourself room to grow in capacity because you will find the CCTV system valuable and worth the investment.
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I have also looked at iSpy software and Blue Iris.
I think I will purchase a single camera to test things out on different software (iSpy, Blue Iris Lite and Zoneminder) to see what I can use easily. Still have to wait to see what PC I can find.
The front door camera is around 10 meters from my office. I am trying to see if placing the camera indoors overlooking my front entrance will be a big problem at night due to IR and reflections. If that is the case, I will have to have the camera outdoors. If I have to run Cat5e outside, what conduit do you recommend?
Sorry I wasn't clear about the budget. I have a budget of around $120 CAD for a single camera.
At the moment, I am trying to see if I can run some Cat5e in my attic to my driveway and sidedoors. I have never been in an attic, so I need to research more. I will probably use a PoE swtich for this side of my house (driveway, 2 sidedoors).
The other locations like my front entrance will use a PoE injector as I only need one camera there.
I admire your excellent planning and tips that you have provided.
You also bring up some very good point regarding home surveillance.
thanks again :)
Excellent idea.... I did the same thing basically testing out different software.
Here in the states they sell plastic conduit that is called schedule 40 that is made of PVC and glues together, it has belled ends to accept the next section of pipe, it is sold at Home depot for around $2.00 USD a stick in 1/2" x 10' of course you will have to figure out how to get the wire through the pipe or have a "fish tape" to pull the wire through the conduit after you install it.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/JM-eagle-1-2-in-x-10-ft-PVC-Schedule-40-Conduit-67447/100122861
No problem.....I understand.
That would be the right way to do it, having no exposed wires.....
Thank you......
One topic I haven't mentioned is the cable, you can buy bulk Cat5e cable or buy pre-made lengths, I have used both and make a lot of my own cables, it's kinda' frustrating at first putting the RJ45 ends on and getting it right, and of course you would need a crimping tool and a cable tester, on both my switches I bought a punch-down patch panel that sits on top of the switch, this allows me to run the cable install a end on the camera end of the cable, then punch-down the other end in the back of the patch panel, I then use a short patch cable to test and connect it to the switch.
It gets a little confusing making up your own cables but in some of the installations it was the only way it would workout, pre-made cables work fine and eliminate a lot of guesswork but are hard to feed through conduit with the ends attached. I'm currently wiring in the new garage cameras for the outside, all the wiring is inside the building and only the camera is outside most of these I've ran making up my own cables using the same method I described above by putting a RJ45 on the camera end of things and punching-down the other end of the cable at the patch panel.
If you go the route of making your own cables you will need to buy solid core Cat5e not the stranded variety, just a word of caution.
Here's a vid to help you decide...lol
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I just called a [surveillance company] to see what they could offer and the price point. They will call back.
I just wanted to explore the different options since I'm not a that "handyman" lol.
will have to see what price they can offer.
I will probably still have my own server since they only have NVRs that require direct connection of all the cameras.
Thanks for the headsup about the different Cat 5e cable types, never knew about that.
Here is a montage view from a few weeks ago of my ZM feeds, the two blue screens were configured cameras that I removed from the system to install and hadn't gotten to it when I took the picture, today there 14 feeds but this should give you a idea of what the interface looks like, yes they have a dark skin theme but honestly I just like the plain white.
This view is from Firefox running on my Fedora daily driver....I can pull the same feeds in windows by just loading the IP address into the browser and starting a ZM session (my wife runs Windows on her PC and does individual camera views
of areas that she likes to keep a eye on during the day.
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Wow, very nice. Thanks for showing me your setup.
Are you able to have a live view of your cameras when you are away from home?
It's good to have a peace of mind when you are at home and away from home.
Thx
The option is available by turning the web server (lamp server) towards the net but I don't do that so for me no, my wife is home during the day she has a home business so someone is around almost all the time, of course we can view the feeds from any device that is on our network including phones as long as they are connected via WiFi. Eventually when I change ISPs and we get a static IP I will point the server to the net and also use it for hosting and mail services.
That function is one of the short comings of ZM but is also a blessing just depends on your point of view I'd guess. lol
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Just talked with a surveillance shop and they said the starting price is $5000 CAD for 4 outdoor cameras able to stand -40 degrees in the winter (gigabit ethernet + power +internal storage), recording server, installation, and 3 year warranty. I think that is total ripoff.
Another company is asking $2500 CAD for a cheap Chinese 4 camera and NVR solution with installation.
Still a ripoff.
I guess I am going to have to do it myself.
So currently, my plan is to have 4 outdoor surveillance cameras able to withstand -30C winters.
A dedicated server for recording and remote access.
To install cameras, I will have to run Ethernet to the cameras from a PoE switch connected to my router or network switch all in my attic.
The server will be in the basement connected to my network switch.
Can you please recommend me some outdoor cameras that can withstand around -30C winters?
Total budget for this project is around $2000 CAD (4 cameras, server, PoE switch, ethernet cables, etc.)
maybe heated cameras to prevent frosting?
thanks
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Most of the IP cameras that are of the bullet design have this as a temperature spec....Operating Conditions 14F - 140F, last winter we had days well below 0F for several days straight all my cameras operated like it was 70 degrees outside, obviously a turret or PTZ isn't going to like extreme cold without some issues.
Sounds about right for them to provide all the equipment and install with a warranty or service contract.....no big surprise
I had to convert from C to F...lol that's -22 F in my neck of the woods, honestly I think any name brand quality camera is going to live through that type of temp...I mean after all they are solid state, no moving parts (except PTZ cameras) I don't think the temp will be a big issue. The nice thing installing yourself is that you can change the camera out if it fails in the first year from Winter temps and prolly send it back for replacement....but I doubt it'll be a problem.
You should be able to spend way less than that and get a good system up and running that you can add to if you choose in the future.
Without knowing the position/area you want to cover and the field of view your looking for it's hard to recommend cameras, I'll give you an example on one building I have Trendnet TV-IP320's these are bullet cameras that give me a lot of field of view to cover the entire length of about a 80' driveway, but at one door I use a Trendnet dome camera that only covers the door and a very small portion around it, if someone comes to the door I get a good view of them before I go to the door I already know who is there.
Inside I have a indoor Trendnet camera that is mounted across the room from a door that gives me a view of most of the room but it is centered on that door to see who is coming or going, you will have to look at specs on the cameras to find what will work in your application for the areas you want to cover.... when you find a model just google it and your bound to find a sample video that will give you a idea of depth of field but keep in mind that changes based on elevation or camera position, the further away the broader the field of view.
When you get down to that aspect post here and I'll try to help you out but I'd concentrate at this point on building your server and your switching gear, then buy the cameras last when you are ready to install or close enough to start testing.
Well they do make these....
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Pro Tip: Spiders...lol
When you get your system up and running you will notice something very odd and that is that spiders love your your cameras, and love to build webs in front of the lens. first I'll tell you the Why, best I can tell is that the IR at night draws bugs to the camera and what do spiders do with their webs? well they use them to trap food, it is a common problem in the summer and will cause false triggers of the camera motion detect from the IR reflecting off the web or the movement of the spider building the web....either way it is a constant PIA.
You can read about possaible solutions in these threads....
http://www.cctvforum.com/about1773.html
https://www.reddit.com/r/homedefense/comments/2kkokv/anyone_have_good_tips_for_keeping_spiders_away/
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1417904
https://forums.securityinfowatch.com/forum/the-tech-corner/cctv-and-video-surveillance/5455-spider-webs-vrs-cctv-camera
There are many more threads on the topic just google it to have a look...
So we have tried a lot of different things, of course most of the year (winter) it's not a problem, but during the spring and summer it is a major problem for us, at first we just wiped them off, then that got to be too frequent (every 24hrs on some cameras) we tried bug sprays that work for anywhere from a few days to a few weeks, funny thing is that some cameras are not affected and others it seems as soon as you clean it they come right back within hours.
Honestly we are still looking for a solution that works all the time, we currently are using Vaseline on the housing and it does seem to work but is of course a royal pain in the ass to do a camera that is on the side of a building 14' in the air, so if anyone else knows of a solution I'd really like to hear about it.
Anyway you have been warned! :)
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