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Bitcoin gains nearly 20%, breaks $5k USD in biggest single-day gain of 2019

#44

I was talking about the fact, that you can fork the current blockchain. If you control over 50% of the hashing power in the network, you can effectively create a new Chain that would not contain some transaction you made, giving you the option to double spend your coins.
That’s not something you and me could do, but it isn’t to far out there for state level actor.

Again, all my knowledge is from reading various sources, so i could be wrong in my understanding of all of this.

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#45

You can fork into a new blockchain. It doesnt require you have any hashing power… also the original blockchain still exists. Its not much different from forking software.

Theres a couple different ways to fork and only one of them could result in a government agency basically having the majority say on what happens to the crypto. This would be extremely hard to pull off and would eventually be thwarted by use of another coin entirely. None of them would allow you to double spend your coins because these are 2 separate block chains.

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#46

all you need to know is that bitcoin is a better store of value than anything else

the next best thing to ‘know’ is that the current system is mainly fraud and that there isn’t even real ‘money’ around any more, just debt [see my detailed post up there]
third best thing is understanding the basics of the dollar and bitcoin. how each is created and how each works.

but the end-user just needs to know bitcoin works, it’s safe, can’t be counterfeit, is (relatively) instant and YOU control your money, not the bank does

that’s two contradictory ideas. you ask what makes bitcoin different and then you ask what you can buy with it – but it has to be something that is “different”.

what can you buy with Yen in the US? what can you buy with gold? nothing. it’s basically a trick question.

bitcoin is different in that it is not debt, but money.

no that is absolutely not the case. bitcoin isn’t a company or payment provider or fiat currency. it only guarantees that it’s there. bitcoin is an open source entity that created something that made it possible to redefine our understanding of money

it has value because it is scarce, deflationary and has a fixed supply. it can’t be censored, your bitcoin can never be frozen or confiscated. but I know, that doesn’t count. because that’s not something you can buy…

“let’s leave all the things out why bitcoin exists and just make this assumption that’s not really true, but nevertheless, let’s also assume that based on that faulty assumption, it’s all the same stuff anyway.
so explain to me why I should even bother?”

bitcoin isn’t a currency. it just can function as one. it also functions as the payment network, as a store of value, as insurance (since it is programmable to some extent, as a contract, as proof of authorship/ownership, as … it’s a protocol like TCP/IP. not a currency.

I’d wish people like you would at least read anything I’ve written above and then ask a question.
and it’d be nice, if you could ask a question, instead of making statements after statements and load them with assumptions.

if you had read even my last posts you’d know that the current system is what gets rich people richer. or have you never opened a newspaper and seen the rich-poor divide explode since fiat currencies became a thing?

the devaluation of the dollar means everything costs more. it in itself makes no one money. it’s just equalized if you own an asset that gains in value at the same time

I think our problem isn’t that people aren’t spending enough. our problem is that there is no way to make sure anything we save is still there years down the road.
spending is easy with a credit card.

if you however want to spend on something that’s unpoopular with the current system – and politics, or receive money from someone and you’re the one who’s in bad standing with paypal or patreon, good luck. unless someone literally sends you cash in the mail, you can’t get paid.

be a content creator, or small business owner that wants to sell something the people in charge frown upon, or create content for unpopular views: and boom, you’re demonetized on youtube, thrown off patreon and your credit card company kicks you out

no one can do that with bitcoin.

want to sell socks or whatever online in a micro store? the hassle with payment providers and the cut they take makes it usually impossible.
not so with bitcoin.
donations same thing: twitch takes a 50 or 60% “cut”, youtube superchat money: 50% cut.

it’s ridiculous.

if all you do is buy a burger, you never need bitcoin. you will have it some day, just like everyone, though

‘I do not understand xyz, but here’s my firm belief that I do not have to’

if all you want is cheaper and more convenient, you’re sheeple :wink: . cheap is easily done. nothing is more convenient than slavery

the next financial crisis will come. it is literally baked into the economic structure. it has to come, to redistribute wealth from bottom to top.
people have to lose their homes, so banks get them for free and sell them to rich people who then raise the rent on you, since home prices went up in your neighborhood, so they can buy more Apple stock.

see how little this has to do with an even easier way to buy a burger?

small thinking is not healthy long term. perspective is really necessary in a time of near infinite deceit

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#47

it shows you know zero to nothing about the ciurrent system.

I find it really annonying you clearly haven’t read anything I’ve explained above of how the dollar, banking and stock market works.
it seems like you want to make statements, not find out information

the dollar is 99.9999% digital.
the dollar isn’t backed by anything

bitcoin is backed by math. literally.
“backing” implies being bound by something that is harder or less fragile than the thing itself.
bitcoin relies solely on math and pre-written rules that are cryptographically (math again) enforced and can.not.be.broken.

it’s harder than gold since gold doubles its supply every 60y. also something I’ve said above. shame on you for not reading it.

“your sources” :smiley:

you know the Chinese don’t like the US, right? what’s the world reserve currency? USD. why would the Chinese mess with bitcoin? it’s their only way to be free of that, should it come to sanctions.
and no: bitcoin isn’t ruled by miners. your “sources” were misinformed.
what is a “majority attack”? it’s called a 51% attack. and no. I think your “sources” didn’t tell you that it’s billions of dollars wasted in a disruption of the blockchain for 10m. that’s what you could accomplish. banks close for 2 days on the weekend. bitcoin has always run: for 10y every day. no disruptions.

“people got rich – so it’s not good for people” “you can just not spend it and it gains in value – so it has a bad image imho” omg… :smiley:
“not a dependable currency” – I think you’re just trolling at this point. nothing’s more dependable than bitcoin.

and I’m sorry, but people who saw and understood what bitcoin can fix and what it can do for the world SHOULD be rewarded for being first.
there are people who spent a year of every day study to understand it in 2011/12. they saw the revolution.

I didn’t. I know people who did. more power to them.

knowledge, understanding and curiosity is a peaceful and civilized way of achieving wealth.

.
you STILL don’t care about saving, about understanding current financial systems or bitcoin.
but you sure want a piece of the pie, or at least you want them having no piece, so you feel better. – such a negative and spiteful attitude

quite the way of thinking, dude. quite the way – envy is so unhealthy. and then you ask us not to tell you about fundamentals, just about a way to even easier spend your money.
but those people do not deserve their HODL’d money, because they didn’t spend it. right?

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#48

I wasn’t trying to offend you with lack of knowledge.
I tried to state what i understood, what i thought was true or not and how i see things. Those implied that i wanted to get you side or information.

I’ll be reading more closely to all of the thread now. I appreciate you taking a chunk of your time to lay it all out in such detail.

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#49

you’re welcome.

I have an insanely in-depth thread on bitcoin compared with Libra (facebooks new crypto) with tons of links and explanations

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#50

look at bitcoin as a protocol like TCP/IP.

not like a currency.

imagine the “currency aspect”, or the “storing value aspect” like the first “app” on the bitcoin protocol framework.

for visa-like instant payments, just without any fees or cost, the first “layer 2” app on bitcoin is called lightning. it is not a fork or a new crypto. it is bitcoin. just sent in a different way, off-chain [i.e. not on the blockchain]

these lightning payments are for coffee type purchases. as an additional bonus, it’s relatively private, since transactions aren’t visible on the blockchain

but the most important aspect of bitcoin for me personally for this and next year is its ability to store value safely.

– I am, personally, extremely worried about a new financial crisis or a greater war that could lead to bail-ins — a legal way for banks and governments to confiscate bank accounts of ordinary citizens to “save banks”. this had already been done in Cyprus – an EU Island country. it’s been legalized in the EU and has long been legal in the US.

if this happens, the tax payer isn’t just bailing out the banks through long term tax increases, no: everything he has in the bank will simply be confiscated

this insane idea – which as I said has been written into EU and US law – will lead to an economic meltdown or civil unrest

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#51

I love the nasdaq chart… I did linear here. (log looks very similar, just less straight)

funny how nobody calls that a “bubble” even though we’ve gone up in a straight line since the last crash

we went from almost down to 1200 to 8600 despite more issues and problems in the markets, an increase in debt – according to the official numbers if you just google it – went up 2.2x

so every man woman and child owed 100k in 2008 to international banking cartels & China (and other places US borrows from), now it’s 230k
– these are the people who own your house, and everything you bought with a credit card and on credit

the question is: did your 5yo kid buy more than 15k $ in shares straight at the low in 2008 to equalize that loss? – kappa

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#52

this is the inverted 10y treasury yield curve vs. bitcoin – i.e. the interest the US offers for money it wants to borrow (inverted = flipped to show the correlation)
i.e. 10y T Bills are down from 2.8% to only 2% yield. same time bitcoin went up like crazy.

the less the US treasury offers interest, the higher bitcoin goes.

shows the interest in bitcoin isn’t from normies on the street right now, but institutional investors.

those will not panic sell if the price dips for a year. these people are in for the long haul.
if you are willing to tie up money for 10 years for 2% interest, you’re willing to ride out any dip in price in bitcoin, if you can get more out than 2%. which is – over several years 100% the case


there’s only 18 million bitcoin right now, and a maximum of 20.9 million that will ever exist.
most of those 18 million are rarely, if ever, moved.

the liquid supply for buyers is razor thin.

next year in May will be the halving event that cuts fresh supply in half.

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#53

For the life of me I couldn’t see bitcoin going over 10K EUR so soon. Not to mention going beyond. Now I feel stupid for not buying at 7K earlier this week.

Yea guess I got my investment back and then some. So that’s nice :D.

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#54

Burst coin, last I heard, was attempting to use the proof of storage as storage for valuable information. Like a sort of distributed library of congress or something. Like project gutenburg, I guess.

Proof of storage is low energy usage, so it has that going for it. If they also incorperate storage of valuable data, that would be killer.

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#55

I know you’re not shilling burst here, and this isn’t meant as starting an argument or an attack.

your point is valid.

but in general, any alt coin that’s using it’s own blockchain and tries to tie it to some futuristic usecase is just, what bitcoiners call, a sh!tcoin.

burst is no different, unfortunately.

none of these projects has gotten anywhere since they started. including Ethereum, the biggest sh!tcoin on the market. Ethereum recently announced a switch to a new blockchain.
thereby admitting, once and for all, that NONE of the things it promised were doable with Ethereum. none. zilch. nada. nothing.
it never worked.
now they go back to a “fresh start” to sucker in more people.

it’s all an attempt to cash in and divert funds away from bitcoin. the only thing bitcoin cannot do it fungible money [fungible = 1 unit can not be differentiated from any other unit. in any crypto this is not the case due to tracing the history of every unit]-- that’s one niche, and we’ve got monero for that (in monero, since no history is public, every monero is fungible).

instead of building ontop of bitcoin as a second, or third, or fourth layer tech, like lightning, or a side chain like liquid, these projects fool people into believing you need an alt coin.

you don’t.

the number one thing we need is to stop fiat currencies from draining people’s savings like a mosquito and forcing them to spend spend spend all they have immediately and in an emergency get dragged into debt from which they can’t ever get out

alts do not do that. you need size and influence for that.

the bigger bitcoin is, the more “say” we have and the more influence our new system can wield.

(I put some links up there proving that bitcoin is 77% renewables and a big chunk of the rest comes from energy otherwise wasted)

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#56

we’ll be at 100k in one year

once you look at the log chart, it’s pretty obvious.

note that the chart start’s low point is ~2 $ and the high is 20k — 2011-2019
since bitcoin isn’t just an asset, but also a shift in technology, there is literally no end in this chart to the upside

the dollar has already lost 95-98% of its value over the last 100y and it will go to zero.
thus anything valued in dollar that is not tied to it – and bitcoin is the only asset that is not :smiley: – will go towards infinite.

since infinite isn’t a thing really, it’s basically a replacement.

horse and carriage --> replaced by cars.
it was a shift in technology.

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#57

Call other CC’s however you like.*
The main thing is: Some found a way to back themself up with something more than just math.
The idea of miners commiting storage is a good one. It could be used for a distributed video platform. Combined with bit torrent, could be very useful.

How long does Bitcoin currently need to process a transaction?
I am not sure if it is viable for the average person. Especially since Google and Apple now have their pay systems, Bitcoin has a very steep hill to climb before average joe attempts to use it.


*The asterisk at the top: CC’s are not in any position to have dick measureing contests between them. Was it China who made it criminal offense to mine, possess or trade bitcoin?
Relying on “the one” alternative to take over the world will not work. Currently, anything “Blockchain” will skyrocket in popularity and value and then vanish as quickly as it appeared. That is not something a currency should do.
Steady value rise is okay, Bitcoins jumping value is not. Wich is the main concern many banks have in regard to crypto.

Ethereum didn’t go anywhere? Nvidia corrected their projection upwards, AMD found themself in a position where any RX470/RX70 and RX480/RX580 was a guranteed sell. That is some huge money moving for “not going anywhere”.

No it is not. Stop the conspiracy. Blockchain and Crypto are the hype train to be on. Of course everyone is going to jump on!

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#59

this one’s sneaky

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#60

Just jumping in here.

As of 15:31UTC on June 27, 2019 BTC has tanked nearly 10% in less than 12 hours.

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#61

you’re the kind of person alts get shilled to… I wrote this and then wanted to delete it since it’s unlikely you even read it – but just take it as what it is. information.

“backing” with anything that is entangled with the current system and its rules and problems is not a bonus.
nothing is harder than math.
“backing” is done to lessen the impact of third party abuse or failure in financial instruments.

bitcoin has no third party except math in the first place.

THAT was the whole point! – if you asked someone in 2014 what a cryptocurrency is, they’d have said: “a way to transfer value without a third party.”

yes, bitcoin was created to do away with third parties and give people direct control!

any “crypto” that introduces “backing” is just exploiting people’s ignorance of how this all works.
you clearly do not know either. – “backing” adds a new variable that can do nothing but weaken the system.

the dollar was backed by gold once. that was a good idea, since dollars are not ruled by math, but by the whim of a banker or politician. get the difference?

you read something that sounds great, “makes sense” and believe it, because you never put in the work to understand bitcoin. that is in turn exploited, just like people’s ignorance of block size and decentralization, which is how bcash got big: some never get how bitcoin works. and those people will always fall for scams.
don’t be one of them

did you put years of your life into this? no? then I’d suggest studying up, not explaining whats wrong with it

again: zero understanding, but a lot of “knowledge” that is false. from this you draw even more false conclusions
bitcoin is piss easy to use, just incredibly hard to understand. you download a wallet and use it. what’s difficult about that?
download the green wallet: https://blockstream.com/green/
want bitcoin?
CashApp made by the Twitter CEO has ~10 million users already! transfer any bitcoin to your green wallet.

try opening a bank account. or buy shares. way more difficult.


a) Bitcoin: any payment is processed the second you send the transaction. nobody needs to wait 10m for a coffee transaction since double spending this would cost millions of USD – who does that for a coffee?

but when is it SETTLED? after 10m

Google, Apple, VISA… any payment you send is settled when the chargeback time limit is over. i.e. weeks.

bticoin is honest with you: it says unconfirmed, when a payment truly is unconfirmed, i.e. not settled. that doesn’t mean it hasn’t been processed or is not, for all intents and purposes, final.

banks and visa act like it’s settled, but it’s not at all – which is why chargeback fraud is rampant. the current powers that be see this as a feature, not as a bug, since it crushes small businesses, who get crushed by exploits like this. and laws and regulation is done by and for the biggest players in the market: i.e. Amazon et al.

you do not understand bitcoin or the current financial system and its flaws, and think you do.
it’s a Dunning Kruger situation. you know so little that you think you know quite a lot.

b) you also have the habit of not reading my posts, and then lecturing me about something I’ve already told you:
Lightning is bitcoin that settles instantly. so you’re wrong and wrong again.

instead of asking what Lightning is, (mentioned in the very post you quote from, dude!), or asking what a layer two or layer three technology is, you assume – and make the proverbial “ass out of u and me” [ass u me]

Lightning is a layer two technology. it is bitcoin. just instant.

I don’t even know what to answer for the rest… it’s complete nonsense on a level that is hard to describe.
non-sequiturs within non-sequiturs…


I’ll try:

China? maybe don’t get your news from TV? everything you’ve mentioned never happened! you clearly get your news from sources that want to keep you docile and ill-informed.

you seem to be unaware that only bitcoin has the size to withstand a nation state attack on the network.
since you know jack sh!t about security in this area, maybe not jump to conclusions and accuse and assume?

there is a very real reason size matters, because size equals security – hashrate of the network directly determines how secure it is

wat
lol? srsly? :smiley:

I can’t even talk to you if that’s something you honestly believe. it’s like a compressed version of dense.
banks hate bitcoin because bitcoin makes third parties, aka banks, obsolete!
jumps in value are not ok? you sober, bro?

do you understand that the $ is worth zero – it is merely distributed according to who is in power. no one except a few profit off this system.
any system that provably represents a new way of doing money is infinitely worth more.
so sudden jumps in value should not be ok?

this decline in value is planned. inflation is the GOAL. ask the Fed: they think deflation – money gaining value – is the devil personified. bitcoin is designed to be deflationary.

it’s designed to go up. how is that bad?

Ethereum just announced it will KILL OFF the whole thing that is now Ethereum and restart on a new blockchain (while trying to migrate all their scammy ICOs to the new chain) talk about going nowhere…

what do a few 1000 graphics cards have to do with a 100 billion dollar market of ICOs? lol???
what are you even talking about?

I was talking about the very core level of their protocol and you argue that something that can’t even be used to mine profitably any more is related to Ethereum killing its own blockchain off?
:smiley: :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

the best part is: you have NO IDEA that Ethereum is trying to go proof of stake: i.e. no mining.
it’s not like Vitalik can ever stfu about proof of stake… and the endless delays due to security issues
:rofl::rofl::rofl:
but keep on lecturing us! :wink:

and of course you just have to go to the “conspiracies” accusation… since you have followed this market and the people involved so much that you can assuredly say I am wrong, right?

you do not know the very basics of what a cryptocurrency is, of what bitcoin is, what Ethereum’s issues are, how banks make money, how the financial system works, how irrelevant normie computer hardware is to crypto in general

maybe I know a thing or two about the goings on in my field of expertise? maybe I say things for a reason?

I know, it is hard to imagine, but some people think first and try to educate themselves first before posting something.

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#62

too-long-didnt-read

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#63

It does not in any way reflect the actual value of anything you might buy with it, if you would ever buy anything in the first place since as you say its designed to go up (not to mention its volatile nature). If you give bitcoin away, you’d lose.

If you buy a house with bitcoin, and bitcoin doubles shortly later. Your house isnt worth double, its worth half what you paid for it. You’d have essentially paid double the price for a house and you’ll not get that money back. In all cases you should not spend your bitcoin because as you say its designed for the value to go up.

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#64

first of all: what you’re saying is nonsense. you give me theory when 1 bitcoin is worth 10000$
so you’re wrong
you’re arguing a store of value can’t have value because you’d store value, not spend it. :roll_eyes:

how about thinking things through first?

before fiat money, people saved before buying something. to save, it’s better if the thing they’re saving increases in value, would you not agree?
this is why a coal miner with 5 kids could afford a house 100y ago.

Keynesianism, which you spout here, is about devaluing everything you’ve just earned, so you have to spend it now, and since you couldn’t save, you get into debt.
homes are bought on debt aka mortgage. every time mortgages by enough people can’t be paid back, we get a crisis #2008

Keynesian nonsense.

spending has nothing to do with creating value and spending is inconsistent with preserving value.

how about buying something when you can easily afford it and it won’t put you in debt or at zero?

what you argue is only true in the same framework that got NY apartments up 100x in price in the last 30y. if you own one of those, good for you. the 1% surely have no issue with permanent redistribution of wealth from the bottom to the top.

this is how a home, a place where people should live becomes one of the few ways people can escape inflation – thus making living space non-affordable for normal people.

the things people need most to live are tainted by this bullshit system we have now. homes, food, wages – all entangled with debt as money and money as debt. because that’s what fiat money is.

bitcoin is debt free and a store of value that is also money.


we have literal slave money, and the slaves seem to desperately cling to it… :slightly_frowning_face:

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