Bitcoin gains nearly 20%, breaks $5k USD in biggest single-day gain of 2019

If you want to store your money safely you definitely don’t put it into bitcoin :smile: That would financially ruin someone, its far to unstable.

I’ve not seen this, the opposite in fact.

Bitcoin also needs to stop being valued in USD, its intrinsically linked to fiat currency and while it is will always be linked to it financially. People dont buy things in bitcoin, they use it to make a few bucks and sell into USD.

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Bitcoin is valued in USD because currently USD is the world reserve currency.

Broken as that may be, until that changes, people will continue to value most things (including crypto) in it.

There will always be an exchange rate between different goods, currencies or services.

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[note that we’ve only closed higher 1 month ever, in Dec 2017]

unstable? this is a monthy log chart since 2012

it’s the kind of unstable everyone would dream of. up from 2$ to 10k

that’s what a store of value is. or is something a store of value that goes down?

there is no asset on the planet that has no price fluctuations

when the halving hits, bitcoin will go to 100k. (halving = fresh supply is cut in half)
18 million of the hard limit of 20.9 million have already been mined.
so a supply cut plus a max of 2.9 million bitcoin in the next 100y basically means that this is the most scarce thing on the planet – compared to gold, whose supply doubles every 60y

you are correct, but strictly speaking, bitcoin isn’t valued in USD. only in the US. there are exchanges in Euro, Yen, Won and that Chinese crap currency

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Yeah was replying to @Eden

There’s an exchange rate for USD, AUD, whatever. It is what it is. You can’t say “it needs to stop being valued in USD” because the only way that will ever cease to be is when the US dollar no longer exists.

it’s merely one of the exchange rates, and the valuation in USD will exist for as long as the dollar does.

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Sure it might be great for long term investment. but that’s not what you said, you said its good for keeping money safe from crises. Bitcoin has its own fair share of crisis.

But Dec 2017? Your safe money is screwed, you cant touch it or you lose, so its now inaccessible and unusable and still is for now.

Bitcoin isnt a place to keep your money safe as you suggest, its value can go up as well as down in large swings. No sane person puts money in bitcoin to keep it safe, they put it in there for the high risk high reward outcome so they can exchange it for usable cash.

In the US? Maybe not. But during the big upside in 2017(?), places like greece (and elsewhere) had runs on the bank where people couldn’t get their money out of ATMs because they had no cash in them.

Bitcoin was safer than the bank, crazy as it may seem (from a first world or USA perspective).

if you’re in one of the large number of other countries in the world with severe currency instability, then bitcoin or something like it is reasonably liquid and (crazy as it may seem) much MORE stable and fungible than local currency.

If you were say, an iranian citizen right now, bitcoin is probably much safer than keeping your money in a bank account.

Sure, gold would be a better/more reliable store of value for those people, but its pretty difficult to get your hands on gold from home, and gold is easier to see and steal if your house is robbed, etc. i.e., it is MUCH more difficult to secure. You’re hard pressed to secure it at home, and if you leave it in a bank, etc. then there’s no guarantee it will be there when you need to claim it (i.e., if the bank goes south).

You need to perhaps widen your perspective to include “outside of the first world”… or at least outside of the USA.

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Venezuelans are probably long bitcoin

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bitcoin never had a crisis.

bitcoin is an uncorrelated asset class. i.e. it is not tied to any other financial instrument, market or nation.

as such, in any crisis, it is the ONLY unaffected asset, and will as such gain in value from people trying to escape any such crisis.

I think you do not understand bitcoin isn’t a “share in the bitcoin company” bitcoin is an open source payment system without any legal structure.

there have never been uncorrelated assets, since everything, truly everything, stocks, bonds, metals, real estate, is all tied together and if one crashes hard, it will drag everything else down.

bitcoin is not correlated. it is completely decoupled from these things.

when you say: “But Dec 2017? Your safe money is screwed, you cant touch it or you lose, so its now inaccessible and unusable and still is for now.” it shows you do not understand what a store of value is.

even gold and silver went down hard in the past, and do regularly. as does oil, or currencies.
the Dollar was once just 2/3rds of a Euro – for a while, or 1.2 Euros. that is an insane swing.

if you have just dollar, in the same 10y where bitcoin went from 0$ to 10k, your dollar is still 100% there, but it has lost 15% of its purchasing power.

you got disowned. 15% of your money got stolen from you. guaranteed.

you also can’t buy anything with gold or silver. yet these still count as “store of value”, despite crashes and booms.

look at the log chart again. that’s pretty tame compared to other assets in predictability. it just went up a lot more

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Turkey, Argentina, Iran, Syria, most of South America actually, China (since you can’t even get a dollar’s worth of currency out of China as a citizen without using bitcoin due to insane regulations), and tons of smaller nations in Africa and around the globe.

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You’d be delusional to think bitcoin isnt affected by anything. Why do you think its rising now?

Bitcoin lost over 70% of its value in 2018. but yeah, its entirely stable.

You seem to believe that if its not in bitcoin to be kept “safe” it has to be in cash, but i never suggested that.

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When priced in US dollars…

And the US dollar used to buy gold at a fixed rate, but lost a huge amount of its value when priced in gold. What is your point?

edit:

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crisis in this context is something like the 2008 financial crisis, which was caused by creating assets that were worthless, selling those and tying the whole economy to them #correlatedAssetClasses

the US economy crashed. millions lost jobs, homes and thousands committed suicide or ended up on the street.

a dip in price is not a crisis.

it may be hard to understand and I seem to suck at explaining it. but let’s use an example:

a share of a stock isn’t evaluated as you may think it is: i.e. “supply or demand” or “what the company is ‘worth’ divided by number of shares” (and even then, there’d be correlation, since companies have employees, who need food, gas, insurance, a roof over their heads and so on)

in reality stock prices are nowadays almost completely based on:

  1. frontrunning prices by algorithms backed by the top banks [meaning the normie investor or small bank never even sees the real price, they always come last. someone else has already cut in-front of them in the line to buy or sell]
  2. stock buybacks from the company itself – after being given a 0% loan by the bank, which got a 0% loan from the Federal Reserve (a private bank, by the way, not tied in any way to government and does not answer to the US Gov)
  3. rich people storing wealth in them (after they got 0.5% loans from the bank based on real estate they own or stocks they already own. the bank got that money for 0% from the Fed)
  4. the Fed buying stocks to keep the price up. e.g. the Japanese version of the Fed owns 49% of japanese stock shares!!!) the Fed is believed to own even more of US corporations
  5. the US Gov buying stocks, from tax money, and money lent to them by the Fed. for… you guessed it: 0% interest
  6. fractional reserve banking (same 2-5 game, different money-from-nothing source)

I could go on.

but you see the pattern. there is no market. it’s all connected and tied together by all these entities that basically get free money.

what that means is that if one domino falls, suddenly the loan – the debt – one of these entities owes: may it be the bank, a rich guy, a nation, a corporation, that loan goes to 0$.

the bank suddenly loses a sh!t ton of money. all other assets the bank is tied to are affected.
worst case, like 2008, it all comes crashing down with the bank failing, and dragging other banks it had lent to or borrowed from, with it

bitcoin has nothing to do with this clown show. it is not correlated. it isn’t included in debt games.

since ALL assets are affected by what is called fractional reserve banking (banks straight up creating 95% of the money out of thin air – not related to the 0% interest issue – which the bank lends out, collects interest from normies, buys stocks or real estate. it sounds insane. and it is.)

Bitcoin is NON FRACTIONAL. it is full reserve. always. there is no debt. it is an entirely different way of doing money.

thus it is not correlated. it will benefit from crises of the current system, but that’s it


as a side note: you now understand that Warren Buffet and all these clowns aren’t genius investors. they’re simply getting free loans from which they buy stocks, which makes stock prices go up, for which they can borrow more money for free and buy more stocks.

the system is rigged so much in their favor and they never have to think much or plan ahead or anything. nope. the man on the street has to do that to keep afloat. not people tied into the free money machine

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it’s so insidious and deceptive that most of the loss of value isn’t visible, since 1 dollar is always 1 dollar.

people can much easier see any asset in comparison, since it is – to them – valuated in dollars. but the dollar was once valued in gold and you could have seen the decline.

which is why they stopped exchanging it, and people stopped noticing.

it’s so evil and it worked so well for decades… slowly leeching from anyone who did not get 0% loans – i.e. average or poor people

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You explained it pretty well. It is the total change of perspective that is really hard to wrap your head arround.

How money should be.
The current system of banks lending money they don’t have to banks that do not have money either is what makes the worlds economy drop like a brick every so often.

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Venzuela’s push is for Dash. There’s a fair number of crypto-enthusiast libertarians going “We told you so!” while standing next to Dash-enabled BTMs.

As far as I have seen, Dash isn’t actually “used” anywhere. there are exchanges. and there is volume.

but at places where you can check what people want to trade for personal use, when they can never get KYC, or do not want AML/KYC, you can see real demand:

https://bisq.network is the biggest decentralized exchange – meaning it does not and does not have to collect data from users for US agencies, never has access to your keys – thus can’t censor you or steal your money, which all KYC/AML enabled exchanges could (all other exchanges basically) [“DEX” is now a buzz word that means nothing any more. there are tons of "dex"es that can censor you or own your keys].
Bisq has over 95% of the volume of all decentralized exchanges.

a Venezuelan citizen would, due to US sanctions, never be allowed at Kraken, Gemini or coinbase[avoid coinbase like the plague!]. thus they need an exchange like bisq

bisq offers Dash, zcash, bitcoin and a ton of currency pairs. Dash volume is usually low 100$ or simply 0$ per day. same goes for zcash.

Monero <-> bitcoin has hundreds of thousands per day sometimes. overall millions per month.
that trading pair is 99% of all trading on bisq

why monero? because transactions aren’t public.

Dash is wholly accessible, like bitcoin. it may mix transactions, but how much is on what address, and transaction amount is visible. also Dash runs on masternodes. these masternodes are simply bought by owning a large amount of Dash.
any US (or Chinese/ British /…) agency could simply buy half or more of those nodes by simply buying enough Dash to completely untangle any mixing that is done.

even if they, for whatever reason, were too incompetent, the metadata of who is online with what IP, what address sends money when, and how much money is owned by which address, would be enough to get a good overview of users and maybe even connect them to IPs

nobody I know trusts Dash. at all. same with zcash – which was a straight up deep state / Israeli scam coin from the start.
I do not think Dash is a straight up scam. I had followed it from before it got renamed to Dash. I liked the project. it just completely underestimated the chain analysis tools available nowadays and the seriousness of the threat level some people face.
think about owning crypto in some third world or middle eastern nation that has a ban on its use, or sanctions. these governments may think like the stone age, but they buy surveillance tools from Western governments and brutally spy on every citizen – just like a Western government :smiley:

Dash is de facto a fork of bitcoin – on an operational level. it does almost all relevant things very much like bitcoin, and adds some privacy.

Monero is a completely new foundation that runs on 2 private keys per address, and never even shows any transaction amount OR address on a public blockchain.
you can’t even see what address holds what amount. since it is all encrypted.

Dash has also consistently lost value over the years, while Monero gained.

just my 2 cents. I still own some Dash. I think it is a fun project. it’s just not used any more by people who actually need privacy, since arguably, if state actors should actually own most masternodes, its privacy is inferior to bitcoin’s, especially with lightning on the way – which is far more private than Dash ever was.

Monero still beats Lightning and bitcoin, though. and I can’t see this change in the coming years. eventually bitcoin may incorporate enough privacy to make Monero something only for businesses and governments to send and receive money anonymously while the normie is fine with btc.
who knows…


in case you’re really into Dash, I didn’t want to start an argument, or piss you off. I genuinely just tried to info dump what I know.

Dash is still worth a lot. if you aren’t fully sold on it, I seriously recommend selling it. especially since alt coins in general – including Monero – will not boom as long as bitcoin is in the “normal” uptrend phase. when it goes totally crazy again – likely if we should hit 60k in November, or 150k next Summer, then Alts may go up.

if I had money and if I could afford putting it into crypto, I’d buy straight bitcoin – as an investment – rather than the (imho more practical) Monero since alts are pretty down now.
but I could be completely wrong. I’m not trading or an expert there. I’m more a fundamentals guy.


there seems to be a conversion of bitcoin maximalists and Monero though… Monero shared bulletproofs with bitcoin afaik, and both teams – at least on the blockstream side – seem to cooperate.
there is also a monthly video podcast that has the main figurehead of Monero AND the CTO of Blockstream on he same show.

Monero will – within a 2 year time span – implement a trustless version of zsnarks (i.e. one that does not require a trusted setup.


just as a tidbit: Monero has had zero knowledge proofs for quite a while: range proofs. (zcash touts that they’re the only big privacy coin with zero knowledge proofs…)

trusted = horrendous | trustless = what you want.

trustless basically means you never have to trust it, since it can’t cheat. which is why the term “trusted” which implies “potentially untrustworthy” is so insidious, since the layman thinks “trusted” sounds great)

thanks! I really put effort in these posts… it took me such a long time to understand all of this and it literally burns a hole in my brain that people are never told this in school or university.

I know bankers who don’t know how their own bank creates money. They just accept it is how things are done by some computer program and the inter-bank rules.

it’s like a old fashioned guild that has all these written, but mostly unwritten rules that are breathed rather than made conscious.

a lot of them, if not most, have no idea that what they are doing, and how their business operates is utterly immoral and destroys their countries economy long term.

I see some really good signs though, with some banks in some EU countries hosting bitcoin events and being extremely positive and supportive.

I’ll be the first to admit, that i probably don’t understand crypto currency. But maybe you can ELI5 or so.

What makes Bitcoin different then any other currency? And not in technical or theoretical terms. But in “what can i buy with it” terms.
In the most basic sense, it’s still a virtual number that says “We promise that you can take X of this number and buy a bread with it”. So, if we leave all the exchange stuff out of it and reduce it to that, wether you pay 1$ or 0.000001BTC for a Bread doesn’t make any difference, does it? It’s just a different number for the same effect.

So, as long as we don’t go back to trading goods directly, no currency has intrinsic value. It’s always about people believing in the fact, that they can pay rent or food with your currency. If you can’t provide that, it’s a toy for rich people to get richer.

Also, if you put your money in assets (houses, land etc.), isn’t the devaluation of the dollar making you money? The real-estate market certainly isn’t 100% stable, but at least you get something you can actually use to survive. Even at 0$ value, you can live in a house.

My point is, how does Bitcoin solve any Problems, when we are NOT talking about investment, but you and me buying things with it. I agree that it’s a more stable currency for many countries.

But really, i think i don’t understand the whole CC Economy one bit. And i don’t earn enough to make investments. If my local baker or super market take BTC, and it’s more convenient or cheaper than Euro or Dollar, sure, i’ll go for that. Until then, we are all just pushing around the promise that you can get something from someone else with plastic cards.

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