What Does Free Speech Mean (to you?)

Choice of words are pretty important. (more so online i think actually). I completely agree, while he dismantles a lot of his thought on topics you still have to understand how hes approaching topics to understand the choice of words. Truth in this case isn't just speaking the literal truth, because well you don't necessarily actually know what is and isn't the truth. The reason I picked up on that to speak the truth part is because I think he put it quite well. Its the ability to speak the truth as best as you are able to do based on what you know, but to also know that while you speak as truthfully as you are able that it may or may not be completely correct.

I think i've only seen one of the sam harris videos.

Hate speech is interesting because im not sure its really a thing. You could maybe say its more like false speech or maybe that's wrong, something like, speech that isn't correct (in the sense that its based on a lack of all information), easy to argue against with a reasoned rebuttal that free speech affords you. That's in part why I think the truthful part I think has some stay in free speech. Someone can spout hate for something.. all disabled people should be killed, there not pure and a waste of resources. For whatever reasons. It would not be hard to prove that false, there's no requirement to stop that person talking because your free to also show them or others they are wrong.

Bit of a generalised example, and you start to tred into issues of societal problems that sometimes define what is right and wrong. I guess my point being (in agreement with most here) that something like hate speech doesnt need to be restricted because it can be counted by more free speech.

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say what you want without getting your hands chopped off

I mean there are plenty of other things to chop off...

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I have the freedom to criticise my government and in that regard it is freedom of speech. (The laws define the rights of people against the authority of government, In this regard it is very similar to the US constitution. The US constitution a document that defined the limitations of government authority of the people has become the defining law between people. Anyhow I'm off topic..). What I can not do is speak lies about a person and then hide behind my rights to freedom of speech. That person can take me to court and I could not use my rights to free speech to defend myself.

Also I can not use my right to free speech to encourage others to violence or hate against people or a group of our society. The people that made these laws remember all too well what happens in Europe when they type of thing is allowed. As you can imagine Germany has very strong laws about this type of thing. The horrors of 6 million Jewish people being murdered tends to concentrate the minds of lawmakers. Hate speech is not, nor can not be defended, too many lost their lives to rabble rousers and extremists.

As for slander and libel, people who spread lies and untruths about a person to injure or harm should be brought to book for their actions. A verbal or written attack is still an attack, if it is untrue then the victim should have the right of redress. This is of course a civil matter, no one if going to prison, the state is not involved.

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Freedom of speech means pissing off the moderators but not having my post deleted.

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Sure

Nope, unless it is your site and you are paying the fees associated with it. Websites cost money and the owner may enforce whatever rules they wish.

That is not how this works. That would be freedom from criticism which entails taking other's freedom away.

Totally agree

Your presentation is lacking, I have seen better green text.

grow thicker skin

Simple solution: hang up the phone. There is no right to be heard. He would have done it again even if he survived.

What about on someone else's property or on someone else's time? If so then you have taken another's rights away.

I would agree with you if you pay or host for this site.

You (anyone in general) can express what ever dumb fucking thing you want but don't be surprised when they ask you to leave their property, criticize you back or no longer wish to give you money (being fired or boycott).

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Hate speech does not exist. Speech is speech, no matter what it is. Should someone go around calling another person a nigger, spick, cracker, zipper head or kike? Probably not. Other individuals in society will make their own conclusions about such a person and judge him accordingly in the court of public opinion. Government need not get involved unless something else comes out of it.

Not a free speech issue. He ordered the military and police to do the killing. No one had a choice if they valued their lives.

We are talking about the right to free speech. You stepping on someone else's property is trespassing. As for someone else's time they can walk away. If you keep following them around that's harassment in one form or another. Again, not the issue at hand here.

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It's not that simple. You took the perspective of the previous posters thought on this, that of a sane person. If you don't know much about mental illness then that's an understandable stance to take. but people with mental health issues do not respond the same way a person without issues would. i.e they don't always hang up the phone, thicker skin doesnt help. I'm not talking about someone taking offence to something, i'm talking about the manipulation and coercion of legitimately vulnerable people.

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I grew up with family members with severe mental illness, schizophrenia. There are treatments for it. And, the Question is: where were that young man's parents? Because it looks like they did a piss poor job to me and are to blame.

And what would be the definition of that? Seems like everyone now is a "vulnerable person" in this age of virtue signaling. Are stupid people vulnerable? Are lazy people vulnerable? Are people with bad hand-eye coordination vulnerable?

What are you at a friends house or on someone's website and you anger the owner and they ask you to leave?

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Anyone could be classed as 'legitimately vulnerable' with the right lawyers. That man you're talking about wanted to kill himself. He was on record saying he wanted to die. That last moment, when he popped out of the car, he got scared. From that article:

When Mr. Roy told Ms. Carter in June 2014 that he was considering suicide, she told him he had a lot to live for and urged him to seek help.

“I’m trying my best to dig you out,” Ms. Carter wrote.

“I don’t wanna be dug out,” Mr. Roy answered, adding later, “I WANT TO DIE.”

By early July, she began to embrace the idea. “If this is the only way you think you’re gonna be happy, heaven will welcome you with open arms,” she wrote.

This case is just so obvious.

EDIT:

The more I think about this story you linked about the man and woman, the less I think this is about free speech. Weapons, chemicals, misuse of every day objects can kill and maim. Words are intangibles and can't do any of those things no matter how much we as people try to personify words. It wasn't the call to action that killed him. Mentally ill or not he killed himself because put himself back into the car. It's what he wanted.

At a friends house you are trespassing if you are told to leave and don't. One someone's website you would just get banned. You at least know the banhammer :stuck_out_tongue: Not free speech issues here.

Ok, we are on the same page. Good stuff.

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These are often in direct conflict. One will take precedence over the other, and without iron-clad laws, it will be the one that favors those in power instead of the people.

If your government passes a law promoting a special status to a group of people as except from criticism in order to promote "tolerance," then it could be argued -in court- that speaking out against such a law encourages violence and hate against that group of people by making it more likely that violence and hate will be directed toward them because they no longer have that special status as being exempt from criticism. Since criticism can encourage hate, the government was therefore right to pass a law outlawing free-speech with regards to that group.

After that, just pass some porkbarrel legislation in with that hate speech law that increases government power to continue to suppress the people. Publicly, they are passed as a way to discourage hate against a particular group. Sure let the police do everything in their power to prevent the "bad people", the "rabble rousers', the "extremists". Anti-encryption laws, surveillance, we need that to "protect you" from "them." But actually, they are used by governments to put people on watch lists so they can be targeted for criticizing the government by nailing them for unrelated crimes... all in the name of "tolerance" and "anti-hate" and "anti-terrorism". See where this is going?

Encouraging violence (non-immediate), hate and other forms of intolerance towards a specific person or group of persons must be a protected right in order for freedom of speech to mean anything. The point of free speech is to protect other freedoms, like privacy, the right not to be surveiled, right to publish, organize with one's peers, and without it, those other freedoms wither.

"Should I go to a rally or hear a speaker sponsored by this political action group this evening? I better not because I might get put on some government list, passed via anti-intolerance laws, and they could throw me in jail for any little thing if they found out I attended." -The death of freedom of assembly.

This confuses the symbol with the object. Very simple error, but of great consequence.

The symbol, the expression of intolerance is fine; what we don't want are intolerant people.

The speech of those intolerant people lets us know they are intolerant so we can address their concerns publicly. That means intolerance must be protected so they can continue to let us know of their views and we can continue to counter it via logic, reasoned arguments and evidence. Using the government to forcefully suppressing their expressions of hatred, 1) does not change the fact that they really are intolerant, merely hides it from view, and 2) does not change the actual amount of intolerance in society for the better because it precludes the possibility of addressing it in a public way, and therefore does not limit it spreading further.

Intolerance simply breeds just as much as tolerance in societies, relative to the actual % of the population with those views. They are literally counter-productive. They actively do exactly what they were supposed to prevent. This isn't even going into the insanity of those promoting hate using such laws in court against those who point out that such speech is hateful. Merely pointing the truth is "hateful" and thus not protected speech. Welcome to the Netherlands.

The people of Germany, or at least the government, has already forgotten what protects against such crimes being committed in the future, as exemplified by their laws. They are even willfully importing the most intolerant people on earth into their society en-mass with no plans for how to bring them up to speed with western notions of freedom out of a sense of guilt. Without really understanding the specifics, sometimes trying very hard to prevent something ends up producing that something.

Too many to answer individually but I have some clarifications on the points I was trying to make.

Inciting racial hatred and inciting violence or not the same as having or expressing bigoted views. It's the inciting these in others that is in question. "I hate that guy, sometimes I feel like punching him in the face" is not the same as "We should hate that guy and I think someone should punch him in the face" Recently someone was convicted of inciting racial hatred because he said he would pay someone to kill a person.

You guys have me researching our laws...

And to the point about not being able to criticise certain people, we have that. Lest we forget the UK is a Monarchy. It is directly forbidden to criticize Prince Charles in particular the Duchy of Cornwall or make reference to the constitutional issues raised by the "Cornish Question" and the relationship between the Duchy of Cornwall, the crown and the constitutional nightmare that is Cornwall. That shit gets officially brushed under the carpet and that is the official government policy on the matter. To the point that 99.99% of British people believe that Cornwall is a county of England. So there is no freedom of speech on that subject, no press freedom either as they are not allowed to publish and stories or articles on the subject.

So yea we have freedom of speech here in the UK with certain exceptions.

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What exactly does free speech mean now? No not according to wikipedia. Ask what it means according to those that are defining it, in the visual media. So somewhere opposite of that. Sure is closer to a more "free speech"

Or just George Carlin

I'm just gonna link a Stranford Encyclopedia of Philosophy article as a good starting point for reflexions on this matter.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freedom-speech/

Abstract : "This entry explores the topic of free speech. It starts with a general discussion of freedom in relation to speech and then moves on to examine one of the first and best defenses of free speech, based on the harm principle. This provides a useful starting point for further digressions on the subject. The discussion moves on from the harm principle to assess the argument that speech can be limited because it causes offense rather than direct harm. I then examine arguments that suggest speech can be limited for reasons of democratic equality. I finish with an examination of paternalistic and moralistic reasons against protecting speech, and a reassessment of the harm principle."

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Well, any speech is an action.

Freedom of speech is necessarily a freedom of action, and also an inherent restriction of action, otherwise the whole thing is paradoxical.

Again, what is the act of speaking a word, if not an action?

It's the action part of language that has the potential to impend on rights (such as, the right to not get bullied, or the right to not suffer harrassment), not the very existence of the concept denoted by a word.

It makes no sense to ban concepts, but it makes a lot of sense to ban certain ways in which language can be used in a harmful manner.

For example, common uses of words by seperate individuals in an offensive manner often collectively results in intimidation or implicit segregation, with the targets no longer believing that they are welcome or safe in certain public spaces, thus ultimately limiting their freedom to frequent those spaces.

It's a causal chain. You could just as well say that the carboxyhemoglobin in his blood killed him, not the fumes. Or that vital organ failure killed him, not the COHb. You can arbitrarily pick any link of the causal chain that eventually led to his brain's death and it would be just as valid a "cause of death", including Michelle Carter's use of words (the use, not the words themselves).

You're assuming that there is such a thing as free and independant conscious will. This much has never been convincingly proven, despite numerous attempts to do so over the course of the last three millenias of human thought.

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Are we talking about human rights or government given rights to free speech?

Unless you were born in a deserted island no one is born with free speech.

It's all allowed under whoever is in charge. Be it your mom or North Korea.

Human rights is BS, you are born with nothing and everything is either given to you or earned. This myth of basic human rights is a bit annoying. Am I born into the right to drink water? No, but if there is water I drink it or someone allows me to

Freedom of speech is important. But what we are talking about her is lack of consequence.

I should be able to call you a filthy good for nothing (insert racial term here) The fact that I can be prosecuted for a hate crime is one of the most Orwellian things imaginable yet it happens.

America is fucked.

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That's not how the concept of "basic human rights" is supposed to be applied anyway.

Rights are meant to be seen as an obligation towards others, not an egocentric "birthright".

The "righting" does not originate from you and then imposed on others, it's the other way around.

Human rights are rights that you are obligated to grant everyone else, by virtue of them being human.

They weren't meant to be seen as something that anyone is entitled to be given, it's something that everyone is ethically obligated to give everyone else, indiscriminately and exhaustively.

When we talk about human rights, every person ought to see it as "the rights of others".
But everyone's implicit biases distorts their understanding, making "human rights" seem as if the question was centered on their own personhood rather than everyone else's.

The whole point of having to sign a declaration of human rights is that humans have a profound tendency to think that they themselves are somehow "more central", "more human", than someone else.
This causes everyone unnecessary problems that could otherwise be remedied by adopting new methods of thought, such as agreeing to a mutual system of accountability and responsibility towards others (which is what a "declaration of human rights" is).

IMO, they should have been called "human duties" from the start.

You can violate someone else's rights by sheer inaction. Human rights violations are really more a matter of people failing their duties towards humanity.
The concept of human duties also shifts the focus from uselessly blaming and punishing people towards actually trying to fix things, rehabilitate offenders and make things better from then on.

Horrors happen when people are incapable of performing their duties towards others, in which case they are not only incompetent humans, they need to be made competent. People aren't born competent ethical agents, they need to be formed that way by external factors.

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True. Speaking is an action. However, a word is an intangible and could not possibly cause harm to someone.

The action part of productive language (speaking/writing) is an intangible and can not cause harm.

All of these can cause offense. Offense, however is taken not given.

Weird. I don't often go into the ghetto where some black people call each other "niggas." They are using hateful speech. Put them in the slammer, I want to go there for recreation. My aunt doesn't go to the southside anymore because she heard a bunch of people shout, "la rasa," to each other and she's a Mexican! Throw them in the slammer so my aunt can get a decent taco. My Chinese wife went down town to go shopping at the high class mall. She saw a redneck with 20 little kids and his obese wife going nuts. In an effort to curb his kids he shouts, "If you don’t use your head, you might as well have two asses," and proceeds to spank the living hell out of a couple of the kids. She won't shop there anymore.

Intimidation or implicit segregation. Please. People who live around each other is for much larger reasons than word usage and has little to do with free speech.

If someone shouts fire in a theater and everyone freaks out hurting others in the process thinking their lives are in danger, thing.

The people who are being told, "Fire!" should listen for a fire alarm first. Since those people have the capacity and ability to hear for a fire alarm they can choose to reject the guy shouting "fire." everything is just fine.

The whole thing sounds silly to me. What I say and what other's do is on their shoulder's, not mine. According to the Harm Principle, there would have to be something said during a time when people couldn't think straight or have enough information about what is being said and they answer the call to action.

So everyone who wants to get out of the theater has evacuated. A couple people got hurt because they couldn't leave without running so he trips over his shoelaces and get's his hand crushed by another rushing by. No fire alarm went off, the movie kept going but those that left did it to be on the safe side. The others are still watching the movie thinking those people are retards. So now the guy who yelled, "Fire" caused harm to some and didn't cause harm to the others under the Harm Principle. Who gets to decide when people can reason by themselves or not? Of course, the government. This is crazy! By the way, there actually was a fire.

The guy who yells fire gets a medal for helping evacuate as many people as he could.

Well, there's at least 32 fucked countries including us!