The World Wide Web Sucks - Lunduke

As he tried to state in the vid, it doesn't matter who's at fault here. We need to fix issues we have, and to fix them we first need to identify em. This is a good step in that direction imo.

Sure, but sometimes things go too far. I didn't know how fucked up DMCA was before this vid.

Please watch the vid when you have time. (If you wish ofc :stuck_out_tongue: )

Fair enough, I dislike those points too.

Talking about static typing or dynamic typing: I believe, that often static typing can have benefits and is more likely to be safer. However, if you develop a good culture in a company/project, you can write safe and elegant dynamically typed code. Some basic rules like a function/method always returning the same type. Something for example PHP does an incredibly bad job of.

I work in a company, that mostly focuses on Java. But the Java code is all but elegant and safe, and Java often ridicules all those neat compile-time checks by implementing huge annotations-processors that will only fail (sometimes quietly) during runtime, leading to funny side effects and leaving you puzzled behind with not one single clue why your program isn't working.

And my only problem with static typing really is, that if it's as cumbersome as Java's it's by no means safer if you lack a good development culture, because of laziness you will simply find ways to sneak past the checks (and the Java community will even praise it as good design and in future build all frameworks on the same bad idea) with more effort than if you had dynamic typing in the first place. But TypeScript does a pretty good job in many cases, as does kotlin, Go and many other, new languages. :slight_smile:

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Oh boy, those are huge points we really need to address, and points that drive me nuts.

And I agree, we need to fix those issues, and we have to start somewhere, I just don't think that a technology rant based on personal preferences helps, and this is what I was under the impression you did first. If not so, I apologize. :wink:

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Well, there's WebAssembly on the horizon, right? Hopefully we can compile insert your favourite language here soon :wink:

The thing is more or less Chrome's Heritage. WebKit came from KHTML, and neither of them were originally meant to be for a tabbed browser. Tabbed browsing was slapped onto it by Apple way back in the day, but for whatever reason resource sharing doesn't work all that well with that. Google and Opera did do a somewhat good job decrappyfying WebKit when they forked it to blink, but we still have a long way to go.
Edge on the other hand isn't all that bad a browser resource-wise, because it was re-designed from the ground up. Gecko has a similar issue as WebKit/Blink does, so we're not getting any help there.
I wonder what would happen if we just had one single rendering engine to worry about... if efforts weren't split into a multitude of engines.

I will when I get home :slight_smile: YouTube is blocked at work :frowning:

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I can get pretty ranty, I can admit that. I didn't mean to came off as "burn the web" kind of guy. I love the shit. Where I'd shitpost if not on the webs. (IRCs I guess)

I just want to have a better web overall.

And to be honest, many of the issues are being addressed atm. Mozilla is working on new engine AFAIK, WebAssembly, I see less framework-hopping lately.

Political problems aren't being addressed as much IMO. Whole DRM thing, centralization of the web by few entities (Google, FB, et al), and ofc the whole encryption "debate".

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That's a consumer problem, not a web problem. People like having it "easy" and "easy" is having everything in one place. It's understandable for the regular consumer though.

WebAssembly is a project of the W3C, mozilla is just a tiny part of the group working on it.

True, I've been trying to de-googlify myself, but still can't ditch my account coz of android and mail.

I just enumerated good things, there's commas that separate em :stuck_out_tongue:

Ah well that explains it :smiley:

Yeah what Mozilla is currently working on is making Firefox multi-process, gonna take forever to complete that though.

Actually Firefox is multi-process for quite some time.

Yeah, but they are making a rewrite. I can't find where I read this, but they said to expect something in FF 56. Also there's Project Quantum - a new web engine from Mozilla.

Quantum is about new engine, Electrolysis is multi-process project. There was a discossion about it >>here<< on the forum. :wink:

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You certainly have a lot of opinions about Brian's video, for someone who admittedly didn't view the video.

Personally, I don't think that Brian went far enough. The web has literally become both a tool for mass surveillance as well as a security minefield. I don't want my browser secretly executing arbitrary code in the background (particularly third party code!) and there is absolutely reason why the web should crash and burn if I, in an attempt to preserve some modicum of security, try to prevent same.

Just because something is possible, doesn't make it a good idea. It seems that the mindset that gave us notoriously insecure web cams is the same pervasive mindset of web and browser developers. Security, if in fact it is ever considered, seems to be merely an afterthought at best. Mary Shelley famously foresaw this 200 years ago, when she wrote of a miraculous invention and only after having loosed it upon the world, did its creator recognize the evil he had given life to. It would seem that some of our web and browser developers are still in denial.

There's also https://servo.org/ and they porting some stuff from it into gecko.

Not so much about the video specifically, only in general.

Might change when I get to watch the video, who knows :stuck_out_tongue:

Not sure what you mean with that, plugins? Cause, the whole idea is that it's supposed to work without plugins, of course it doesn't, but that's a different story.

But not entirely though, right? I'm not really using Firefox anymore, we just have it at work (ESR verison though), and I have 2 processes, one for the normal and one for private window. Is that a setting or flag? Or is it not rolled out for everyone?

I mean whenever you load a page with JS, you execute arbitrary 3rd party code.

I agree, the philosophy of "why not?" needs to be turned into "why tho?"

Yet you are using web atm, and in fact executing tons of JS.


While I am myself not a fan of current status of web. It would be a shame if web never existed. Without it I would never learn to code, I wouldn't be able to talk with tons of people, and I wouldn't be able to shitpost.

I agree about spying, hell I use uBlock and Privacy Badger, and sometimes even Tor (I see no point in using Tor when I am going to authenticate in the end). But overall web can be a great thing. We just need to try and win it back.

And in the end the worst problems aren't in the efficiency (or lack there of) and RAM usage. It's exactly what you're talking about. The biggest problem with web is not web, but people who use it. We, as users, let it become centralized, which in turn let it to be used for surveillance (or at least made it easier). We traded privacy for convenience.

We, as in devs, got lazy with software, we default to "hardware will get faster" and "works fine on my machine with 16 GB of memory" instead of actually looking into a problem, profiling and optimizing. I get why though. in the 80s we had constrains, now, not so much.

So in the end, even though I have a beef with web (fuck even whole internet) on tech level. I much more have a problem with it on political level, which is only fixable by people, not tech.

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Hm, interesting... might be an ESR thing then, who knows.

I might be wrong here, I think everything that is in {} is a thread not a process.

Consider this zsh process with suspended processes.

And this description from pstree man:

       pstree  shows running processes as a tree.  The tree is rooted at either pid or init if pid is omitted.  If a user name is specified, all process trees rooted
       at processes owned by that user are shown.

       pstree visually merges identical branches by putting them in square brackets and prefixing them with the repetition count, e.g.

           init-+-getty
                |-getty
                |-getty
                `-getty

       becomes

           init---4*[getty]

       Child threads of a process are found under the parent process and are shown with the process name in curly braces, e.g.

           icecast2---13*[{icecast2}]

Derailing the thread:

Fucking linux man, confusing as shit :stuck_out_tongue:
I think this answers why threads have PIDs: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9154671/distinction-between-processes-and-threads-in-linux

Servo is actually separate project (not related to Firefox) but since it was created by Mozilla they decided to use some of it's features in new Firefox engine. :slight_smile:


Yeah I'm so lazy I know :stuck_out_tongue: