OK guys, I need you to talk me down from buying an M4 Mac Mini

Operating Systems & Open Source Linux
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pros and cons of the M4 Mac Mini vs a Thelio Spark Essential.

Mac Mini Pros:
• $600
• geekbench 3874/15057
• blender opendata 231
• lower power consumption(65w)
• can run some applications I am interested in (AirMessage)
Cons:
• Minimal expandability (only HD, which is quirky, and T-bolt 4 [eGPU?])
• MacOS(haven’t used since macs were black and white)
• Vendor lock in (details?)
• would need to keep old computer for some tasks
• lower game compatibility*
• possible increased exposure to TLAs
• no choice of desktop environment

Thelio Essential:

Pros:
• high expandability (proc, ram, hd, gfx cards, etc)
• Linux (been using 10+ years)
• High game compatibility **
• open source, privacy (no extra exposure to 3 letter agencies)
• could turn old computer into file/print server
• choice of desktop environment
Cons:
• $800
• geekbench ~2493/~10886
• blender opendata 187
• Higher power consumption(650w80+gold)
shared:
Shared Pros:
• Not Windows
• not 10+ years old
• don’t have to build it myself
• tariffs may be coming

Shared Cons:
• If I wait I might get something better later
• out at least $600
notes:
*(why won’t steam let me sort my library by compatibility w/ another platform – do you wanna sell Steam Decks or not?!?)
**(for me - started using steam about the same time as Linux)

there are also 2 gremlins on my shoulder. One says “if you get the Mac you could help Asahi get running on the m4” (it currently only runs on m1 and m2, AFAIK); the other says “you haven’t even written a shell script, who are you kidding”.

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talk me down from buying an M4 Mac Mini

Why at all do you think you need a new computer? What is that your current one can’t do today?

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If you want to game on a mac you will find it really tough. Once you buy the Mac pretty much everything will be soldered down, IIRC some models even go with soldered storage and no way to upgrade that (internally). So upgrades are pretty much not a thing and there are some atrocious latency issues with some Mac screens, too - especially low end.

That is assuming your games even run on their ARM CPUs. Some do, a large percentage does not.

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at this point, only very old games will run on my desktop - Baldurs Gate 3, for instance, won’t run. (I usually play it on my Steam Deck.) Also i’ve encountered a recent distro that refused to install on my machine when it did before, so I suspect some of my hardware is EOL as far as some Linux Distros are concerned.

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It looks like you’ve already done all the(good) work of talking yourself out of buying the Mini.

The point of having to keep the old machine around for some things would be the deal breaker for me. If you need separate machines for separate tasks that’s fine, but having to keep track of the same stuff across two different machines and remember which one you were using for what gets annoying pretty quickly.

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well you already know about Asahi so…why not a used M1/M2 to mess around with? Fedora Asahi Remix - Asahi Linux

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M2 +Asahi

External display support landed? I think the lack of DP via it’s ports is kinda dealbreaker for many.

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you’ve misread me, at this point i’m leaning toward buying it!

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I mean, your con list for the mini is bigger than the pro list, and yet here you are asking for reasons not to buy the mini, so… :thinking:

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If I wanted a small computer for size reasons, the Mac Mini is the only one I’d consider, and that’s speaking as who dislikes Apple’s approach to UI/UX design. At least the current generation Mac Mini has an acceptable level of RAM in the base model, but still consider if 16GB is enough long-term. The 8GB base in previous M1/M2 generations put me off buying one, because the 16GB M1/M2 was so overpriced.

There are small x86-based PCs which are quiet, fast or power efficient, but I’m not aware of any which achieve all three as well as Apple. I have a Dell Optiplex Micro with a 13th gen Intel i5 and it’s nice and snappy for productivity, it’s well-built, upgradable, relatively low power, and the noise is tolerable at idle, but under moderate load it begins ramping its nasty whiny fan up and down constantly. Due to the noise, I hate using it compared to my larger Ryzen-based desktop which is inaudible most of the time and when it does ramp up, it’s controlled and with sensible hysteresis.

A small form factor tower with standard components like the Thelio you reference is as small as I would want to go for a regular PC, if buying again.

Just think about whether you really need a truly tiny computer, because factors such as power consumption might not be as bad you think at first, and lack of upgradability can get frustrating later in the machine life. Even the Dell Optiplex Micro I bought, which allows CPU, RAM and SSD upgrades has annoyances like only a single DisplayPort output and a crappy HDMI 1.4 port, and adding HDMI 2.x requires a proprietary daughterboard from Dell. If the power supply dies, I’d need to source a like-for-like replacement from Dell. You have none of that with a regular PC.

My energy tariff is 25p/kWh for 18 hours during the day and 7.9p/kWh for 6 hours during the night.

My full desktop PC idles at around 55W from the wall. Even if it was running 24/7, that’s only 45W difference at idle between that and any of the tiny desktops and their typical 10W idle, meaning £82/year difference. In reality you’re not running at idle all day, the PC will be sleeping, so considering a more reasonable 8 hours active idle time that drops to £33/year difference.

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The only real downsides(besides privacy/principles yada yada) of mac are gaming - but you could stream off another computer/steam deck/geforce now etc -and whether you have customization quirks and drive(to customize/optimise stuff yourself) like the nerds that have been here long before us. The experience of using macOS is pretty good as long as you don’t think about colouring outside the lines. You just need to decide whether you are particular about said lines. Small note: When your mac gets older, it might just have mostly proper asahi support, so down the line even if you can’t upgrade the hardware, you could possibly try new software.

I am using linux at home and a macbook at work. I have been personally pondering buying a mac mini to use for web browsing and only streaming from the computer while gaming but I can’t justify the cost.

I find it a bit strange how you have “would need to keep old computer for some tasks” on one side’s cons while the other “could turn old computer into file/print server” is a pro. Both of these imply keeping the computer around and being able to do other tasks on it.

Now with the rambling out of the way, I don’t think you can make a bad choice here; Both sides have compromises but you seem like you’d enjoy both a similar amount.

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Everyone has different priorities. $600 isn’t a lot of money. For me, I would be asking if I could make the unit pay for itself. I already own a dozen PCs so I would be asking myself if I really needed it for anything specific. Could I be investing that sum of money into some thing where it would be better spent? Novelties wear down rapidly. I just spent roughly the same amount of money in Canadian dollars on an OTVOC. The thing has been sitting in the box for two months now unopened. I purchased it only because I gave my Dell laptop to my daughter because she will be needing it for university and I really don’t much care for touch screens. For this I can justify the modest cost of an OTVOC. The real question for me would be, “Do I actually need this?”. I am mostly a desk top user but occasionally I really do need the use of a laptop. Do you actually need the M4 Mac Mini?

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Every OS has similar security if you go online. The only real difference is that windows actively sells your data, Apple claims not to sell data, but I can’t promise anything with them, and linux doesn’t have anyone to sell your data.

But all 3 operating systems are equally exposed to the 3 letter agencies. It’s not even worth bothering IMO.

If you want to game, buy a real PC. These stupid mini PCs cost WAYYYYYY too much money for what they are. If you play super old games that are listed as running on mac, buy the m4. I have a m4 mac mini and I can play tf2 on low settings. It’s not an amazing experience, but it works. And the performance I get for all of my other tasks is pretty amazing. The M4 is snappier than my 7800x3d which is saying something.

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The malware in the wild doesn’t remotely similarly target every OS.

Databrokers would be open to any source of data. So it’s not that. Few things in the linux ecosystem sell data because fuck around too much and there will be a fork an loss of userbase.

What makes you say that? On Linux it’s hard to do without getting busted, and time passing is an enemy. On non-libre system, they can force MS or Apple to put stuff wherever it’s the most convenient and it will pretty much never be known, never be removed.

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@guyjin you want to upgrade for gaming, the M4 option goes out of the window right there. The GPU isn’t supposed to be that bad. Not sure what went wrong there. But you might need to expect such catastrophic gaming performance.

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I use macos for work, I hate it.

Linux is FLOSS and infinitely hackable, Windows has games, macos has…Nothing I find compelling.

The only thing I notice about the mac hardware is I have to worry a lot about RAM usage, since the extra RAM was a wild rip off work only got me a 16 GB model laptop.

Some people like macos, though.

That would be the meat of the decision for me, what OS/software I could run on it.

(Related, I find AMD64 less hassle overall than ARM64 as the software world for me is still dominated by AMD64.)

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Why get a desktop without ECC memory?

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Because ECC for clients is basically dead.
Just like the workstation with ECC is basically dead.

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what is wrong with a Mac actually?
You should choose whatever suits your needs best basically.
idk about mac mini´s prices maybe building a mini itx system could be a viable option as well.

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What will you actually use it for? For some purposes the mac mini may well be superior, for others the system76 will be superior…

IMO at the moment macbooks are the best laptops for most people/purposes. The efficiency of the M chips is so good I’d compromise on macOS and they’re powerful enough to virtualize whatever macOS can’t do.

For desktops it’s not as clear since efficiency matters less.

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