Government customs systems & Brexit

Firstly, I’m no expert. Most of what I know about this issue is contained within the text below, in which there will be mistakes. I may get in a muddle on certain details but I think the broad thrust will be correct. It’s an issue I’ve been mulling over the past six months since I heard how quickly and completely the UK may end up exiting the UK. My immediate thought back then was: hang on, what about all the IT systems, the EU wide systems the UK uses and so will have to implement its own of, and UK systems’ integration with EU systems and the implementation of EU rules in UK IT systems which will no longer apply post exit? And then my next thoughts were: is there enough time for this work? And if failure results in a breakdown of these systems what are the consequences? And then I wandered what these systems might be? The most obviously impacted one I thought must be government customs, surely this isn’t paper based any more? And so the ‘mulling’ began, and I’ve been mulling since, so this is likely to be long. Apologies in advance... but like I say, I ain’t no expert - so if you are, or at least can counter any of the below then (well, generally as with most people I prefer to be right but in this case) PLEASE DO!

We'll take it as read that the UK will leave the customs union and single market two years post article 50 notification. And there’ll be no transitional period during which systems can be adapted to the new rules of trade between the UK and most of the rest of the world. The falling off a 'cliff edge' Brexit. Maybe that won’t be the case but it’s looking increasingly likely. If that were to happen then the biggest problem will not be the new, more cumbersome, slower, expensive etc routes to trade as a result of implementing whatever new rules there may be in terms of tariffs, quotas, customs checks. There is a much greater upheaval from the disruption caused in attempting to transition to that new and shittier state, in attempting to adapt customs systems and processes and facilities to the new rules in the extremely limited time there'll be available. Because there won’t be enough time.

I keep reading articles about ‘cliff edge’ brexit scenarios, where the UK falls on to WTO rules (although many of those rules will be undecided e.g. quotas), how there’ll be extra red tape, how much more expensive imports will be, and the added uncompetitiveness of UK exports due to tariffs and the disruption to supply chains due to the extra customs checks causing some manufacturers to move their production out of the UK and so on and so on.

Articles like this by Nick Clegg:
http://www.cer.org.uk/sites/default/files/Brexit_International_tradeClegg_8Sept16.pdf

...or this one from Richard North about the dangers of the ‘WTO Option’: http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128
Richard North is a leave supporter who has always argued for a gradual exit by first re-joining EFTA through the UK’s existing EEA membership.

And here’s a typical one (an extract from a forthcoming book): https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/politics/hard-brexit-cliff-edge-vision-leaving-eu-without-deal-imagined/

What none of them take into account, what no one as far as I can see is taking into account, is that in order to get to this new state, work needs to be done! There is not enough time to do this work. So as bad as those ‘worst case’ scenarios look, what will make them even worse will be a situation in which the UK government’s customs systems simply do not work as a result of failing to implement in time the changes needed for the UK’s new trading environment. No one is asking what the systems’ implications, dependencies, costs and timescales of re-introducing hard customs borders with the EU are, whether it is even possible to do this in the time available, and what the consequences of failure will be. Google it. Seek and you will not find. In a sense the arguments made in those articles by Clegg and Richard North and so on, and generally arguments for or against whatever trading arrangements there may be post hard brexit are all moot. It’s a bit like arguing the pros and cons of life on Mars when the only means of getting there is to stuff yourselves into a giant cannon roughly aimed at that red planet. There is no time to implement those new trading arrangements. You ain't gonna get anywhere near Mars however nice or not it might be to live there.

We are talking here principally about IT systems and the failure of a number of systems of vital infrastructural importance to the UK economy. Systems in the finance sector, supply chain systems, but particularly government customs systems. So before we begin I’ll just get one potential counter argument out of the way. This is not another Y2K scare story. Firstly Y2K was not just a scare story. It would have been a problem if the work hadn't been done. The work got done. It was a very widespread issue but you could have trained monkeys to make most of those code changes. It was basically the same simple fixes made over and over in loads of different places. OK, sometimes finding the problems (e.g. embedded systems) was hard, but there were no changes to business rules - just fixes to code. A programmer or analyst would not have needed to ask a domain expert (accountant, banker, tax consultant, or whoever the system is for) if some date in a calculation is supposed to wrap round to 1900. It was mostly all at the code level, and similarly, although to a lesser extent, so was the euro introduction. With Brexit though, the rules are changing... and no one yet knows to what, all we know so far is that Brexit means Brexit. This problem is fundamentally different to Y2K.

So to customs systems, what do they do? Customs processing in the UK is presently handled by a system called Customs Handling of Import and Export Freight (CHIEF). HMRC’s CHIEF system manages the declaration and movement of goods into and out of the UK, calculating and collecting revenue thereon. It is also (for the time being at least) a means by which UK traders communicate with counterpart customs systems in other EU states. It also (again for the time being at least) connects with the EU’s Import Control System (ICS), which allows the sharing of security and safety data regarding the movement of goods among member states. Furthermore, it is integrated with the goods scheduling systems at UK ports and airports (pause and ponder for a moment here… integrated with goods scheduling systems in every UK port). I’m told Dover has an average goods in waiting time of 40 minutes… well for the time being at least.

What is the current state of these systems? CHIEF was not written yesterday by teenagers in javascript using node js. You can’t download the source from Github. You can't run it on your phone. You look at it via special green screen terminals. It’s written in dun-dun duuuun… COBOL! Its communication protocol is EDIFACT. Its DBMS is IDMS(X), and OS is VME - both from ICL. ICL went out of business 15 years ago! This is 80s technology! It’s a completely different world to the one most developers nowadays are accustomed to. For several years HMRC had been throwing cash (around a billion maybe) at CapGemini and Accenture for a ground up rewrite (anyone who knows anything about large legacy IT systems should shudder at the phrase). It came to nothing. They are presently part way through another re-write attempt this time with IBM. This new system is called the Customs Declaration Service (CDS) and was made necessary due to CHIEF becoming unmodifiable and the wide ranging changes needed to implement the EU's new Union Customs Code (UCC).

UCC is a common set of customs processes to be adopted by all EU members.
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/customs-handling-of-import-and-export-freight-chief-replacement-programme

CDS is due to come online early 2019, a few months before the UK's currently projected EU exit date. This is already an at-risk project. The risks of a ground up rewrite are enormous; an existing system will have had years of real life testing by users. Systems become increasingly difficult to change mostly due to the complexity arising from an accretion of fixes and enhancements so developers start crying for a re-write as most want to write new stuff - not fix some other chump’s work. The existing system would need to have been fully documented, and that documentation painstakingly kept up to date for all the years’ worth of subsequent modifications because that documentation is the source of truth for what the current system does, and so what the new ground up rewrite may need to do. Even without brexit we’re looking at a car crash here.

So what work would need to be done should the UK leave the customs union and single market after the two year article 50 period? With no replacement, EU-UK trade agreement tariffs will be applied by the UK on EU goods entering the UK. This it will have to do under the WTO's most favoured trading nation rules (MFN) unless the UK unilaterally drops all tariffs. Competition from third world countries would gut UK industry and agriculture so setting all tariffs to zero is unlikely. It also leaves the UK with nothing to bargain with in order to reduce the tariffs on its exports, so again, unlikely. And likewise by the same MFN rules the EU will be obliged to charge tariffs on UK goods being sold in the EU. This introduces a change in how the UK conducts over 40% of its international business. However it will result in a greater than 40% increase in the number of declarations being fed through whatever customs system the UK may have (CHIEF or CDS) once exit finally happens because many small businesses will have taken advantage of the ease and simplicity of trading within the EU as opposed exporting out of it (see also for example how VAT works for inter-EU trade as opposed importing in to the EU from out). However as well as the change in rules for UK/EU trade and the necessary scaling of the system to meet the increase in data throughput, there are also changes needed for trade between the UK, and other trading blocs and non-EU countries. This is because the EU, over the decades, has negotiated, on behalf of its members, 40 or so trade agreements, which on exit the UK will no longer be a party to (it will have no trade agreements). So basically the rules which govern how the UK trades with the entire world will change. That’s quite a wide ranging set of changes, it kinda looks like everything this system does will need some sort of amendment.

So a lot of work to do but what track record does the UK government have for delivering large IT projects in time and within budget? As per IT projects for most governments and large companies, pretty appalling! We’re talking years of overrun and manned mission to Mars scales of money wasted.

UK government IT project fails:

  • E-Borders:
    • Half a billion spent over several years.
    • Abandoned.
  • The BBC’s digital media system:

    • A billion spent over several years
    • Abandoned due to becoming obsolete, while still being developed!
  • NHS Connecting for Health:

    • Mostly abandoned but some parts continued.
    • Ten years.
    • 12 billion spent.
    • 10 billion over budget.
  • The Universal Credit System (Brexiteer extraordinaire Idiot Dumb Dumb Smith's baby):

    • A whopping 12.8 billion since 2013.
    • 2.2 billion originally planned.

So, a lot of work to do and not a great track record when it comes to delivery on time, and within budget. So what time might be available to complete this work? On the issue of scaling for the increase in declarations HMRC have said they are already doing this. It is after all something they can do now and adapting a modern system (the CDS system currently under development) for a greater load is not so much of a problem, servers can be added to meet the demand as and when. Scaling the existing CHIEF system would probably be a non-starter. However it’s likely that CDS will overrun and not be ready in time for brexit, in which case HMRC may have to start looking at updating CHIEF. Oh boy. The single article I’ve seen on this topic area (and I check everyday) in the mainstream media was in the FT, and the problem was couched solely in terms of this (i.e. the need to scale the system for the increased load). The reason being is that HMRC have announced that this is work they are doing and so the FT dutifully reported it. What HMRC haven’t said is what work they are not doing. The work they are not doing is modifying systems for the changes that will come in terms of tariffs, quotas, customs checks for valuation, rules of origin and security - particularly if the UK is no longer a participant of the EU’s ICS. And of course being journalists it hasn’t entered their pretty little humanities degree heads that this is work that will need to be done... or perhaps they imagine the magic code fairy will descend from the heavens on exit day’s eve and with a wave of the wand all this work will be finished in an instant.

Work relating to the new rules of trade can only start once negotiations are complete. It isn’t until the negotiations are done and any agreements signed that there can be any surety and clarity on what those new rules are then, from which technical specifications can be drawn up (i.e. scribble something on the back of a fag packet to hand to the programmers). So if those negotiations take no time at all then the developers would have the whole two years allowed by the article 50 process (which would still be suicidally tight). If on the other hand, negotiations use up the entire two year period, then they have a remaining zero seconds to complete the work. I would tend toward the latter. Quite a challenging deadline, and particularly so for a government IT project.

What is the likelihood of failure? Doh! The situation is analogous to an army on the move (i.e. customs systems are being moved from the old CHIEF system to the re-write that is CDS). This army on the move is about to be ambushed (because there is no time to prepare) by an overwhelming force, because there doesn’t appear to be much that this system does which won’t in some way need changing (i.e. every function point will be under attack from a hail of change requests). There is no fallback system in the case of failure. In those other examples of failed government IT projects the existing system could continue to be used, but in this case not so, unless perhaps the UK accepts Schengen, the euro currency, and pays the full EU dues. Also in those other IT failure cases, if the project overran then they have the option to continue plugging away until the money runs out. Hard Brexit on the other hand delivers a hard deadline. Once you are out you are out, pencils down, times up, whether you’re finished or not. Which all makes failure more assured.

There are further exacerbating factors which make failure all the more likely. E.g. the time constraint imposed by not being able to start work on the changes, which won’t be known until negotiations are complete, which are unlikely to leave enough time (or indeed any time) for those changes to be made. This somewhat challenging zero seconds time constraint won’t just apply to government customs systems. Other government systems e.g. immigration and business supply chain and transport systems might be affected too. Crucially though, financial systems. If you google news about Brexit with the word ‘transition’ (i.e. a transition period to give time to implement the required changes), you will find it is nearly always financial services doing most of the crying here, and it is mostly that crowd who have the treasury’s ear. The rules will change and I think part of the naiveté from many people is that they seem to believe that all is required is a change of rules. A new contract with the EU. Negotiations to arrive at those new rules. Write them all down in a new contract. Tear up the old one. Job done. But not job done. A bit more work needs doing here. The machine that civilisation now runs on is made of rules. Those rules need to be encoded into the systems which run an economy. Civilisation runs on working code (though in many cases no one is quite sure what a lot of it does anymore lol). Finance nowadays is almost wholly composed of IT. Financial service companies do not spend their time counting physical coins and notes then arranging them into neat little piles. So, the IT systems in these businesses are somewhat prone to rule changes. And these businesses are more able to pay a higher price to get whatever work needs doing done. Obviously government IT isn’t going to be a winner in the competition for resources here, so that’s the exacerbating problem.

But another thing that makes failure more likely is the apparent invisibility of this issue. This isn't in the news because of some conspiracy. The main reason it doesn’t appear in the media is largely due to the kinds of people (either for or against Brexit) involved in the public discussion. Journalists, economists, politicians, business leaders. These people do not do not do detail, they only see the ‘bigger picture’. Very few will have written a line of code ever. IT systems are rarely part of anyone’s bigger picture regardless as to how fundamental they are, and for some problems if you only see the bigger picture, you are not seeing the problem at all. The devil isn’t so much in the detail but a whole screaming horde of them are waiting for the gates of article 50 to open. If no one in power, or no one in the media, can see or understand the problem then nothing will be done to prevent or ameliorate it. Further, those in power are unable to accept there may be problems in implementing Brexit - they only want to hear good news about the opportunities it will deliver, and their underlings do not want to be the bearer of bad news for fear of being branded as against ‘the will of the people’ (there was an article in the guardian about that very thing recently).

What are the consequences of failure? A broken customs system. A broken system which plays a key role in coordinating the flow of goods through every one of the UK’s ports and airports. From what we have to go on here, gridlock and total chaos for however long it takes to get things fixed because there is no possibility of reverting to the ‘earlier build’ unless you go begging to the EU to be let back in. And it doesn’t take much in terms of additional delay to each container in order for a queuing system to gridlock... and it won’t take long for a gridlock on this scale to lead to some very dire circumstances. When the UK lorry strike occurred in September 2000, it emerged that due to the highly efficient just-in-time logistics, hardwired into the UK food system, supplies were an estimated 3-5 days at any one time.

The most dire consequences of a prolonged breakdown in customs IT will be to the UK food system. There isn’t anything more fundamental to the life and well being of a population than its supply of food. Obviously. This system failure will be one contribution of five in a perfect storm. The UK is 40% dependent on imports for its food. For some food stuffs you’re more dependant on imports than others, particularly the good stuff for health - fresh fruit and veg. The UK exports whisky, biscuits, fat and meat... but the combined Brexit related blows to the UK food system, I’ve seen many articles on them individually but few on their combined effect, they are as follows:

  1. Sterling took a hit and a rather sustained one after the referendum. So it doesn’t seem unreasonable to predict another step drop on triggering A50 and again once you actually... finally... leave. The full effect of a currency drop takes time to work through supply chains before hitting consumer prices. As stocks bought when the pound was higher run out, as currency hedge funds deplete, and as the first among competing suppliers blinks and raises prices before the rest follow suit. Higher prices for imported goods over months are slowly inching their way from the price of containers at one end of the world to the prices on the supermarket shelves at the other. And that includes the price of food, or at least the 40% of it the UK imports. However the homegrown 60% is not immune as costs of imported machinery, fertilisers, and fuel rise. Sterling has so far proven to be very sensitive to the Brexit issue, whenever it looks like the idiocy will be soft the currency goes up a little and whenever a hard idiocy looks likely it goes down. And as the penny drops that a hard brexit will be more calamitous than anyone so far has predicted then… the penny will drop even further.

  2. The UK’s food system is migrant labour dependent. There wouldn’t be much UK fresh fruit and veg if it wasn’t for foreign pickers, storage, and distribution workers. Some crops are more labour dependant than others - for example picking soft fruits like strawberries; not an easy thing for a machine to do. The restrictions that will be placed on EU citizens' ability to work in the UK will lead to a labour shortage which in turn puts a further upward pressure on food costs. The slump in currency is already making the UK a less attractive place for EU workers as they ain't getting a lot of zloty for their pound sterling like what they used to leading to... labour shortage... further upward pressure on food costs. And on top of that people aren’t too keen on having the shit kicked out of them for speaking in their own language, making the UK an even less attractive place to migrate to for work, or just to visit, or even look at.

  3. EU subsidies make up 55% of UK farming income. Will subsidies stay? Most pro-Brexit politicians are ideologically opposed to subsidies strongly believing in the “free market” i.e. no subsidies - if an industry fails, let it. Secondly, the UK needs to negotiate new deals - not just with the EU but with all the countries and trading blocs the EU had negotiated accords with on behalf of its members over the past four decades. The UK is just a tad smaller than the rest of EU (and consequently so is its bargaining strength), will be rather desperate for trade deals (because it won't have any), and a little out of practice and under resourced when it comes to negotiating such things (because the EU has been doing that work for its members). And farm subsidies might be seen by any negotiating partner as giving your industry a bit of an unfair advantage so there may be some (i.e. a lot of) pressure to drop them. So the 60% of home grown food the UK produces may take another bit of a hit when the loss of subsidies makes a lot of farms no longer a viable economic option.

  4. The imposition of new tariffs but also the disruption to supply chains caused by non-tariff barriers (NTBs). NTBs such as goods inspections to check for regulatory compliance. Security checks which there may need to be more of if the UK is no longer part of the EU’s ICS. And to ensure right amount of duty is charged there now needs to be the systems and processes and infrastructure and people in place to value and determine the origin of goods (and origin checks are not a small task given stuff tends to be made of parts from a variety of places). Granted, these things are already being done, but aren't and haven't been done for trade between the UK and other EU countries for some decades. And given the volume of that trade this amounts to a big change, a huge new source of disruption and delay. Supply chains snake back and forth across national boundaries over the EU in many industries and food is no exception. Millions of food contracts depend on cross continental supply chains. It’s why roads are clogged with food wagons. Extra checks and administrative hurdles between the UK and EU will disrupt or even destroy many supply systems particularly so for time critical consignments like fresh fruit and veg. How will, for example, cabotage arrangements survive post UK exit? I just wanted to throw that word in there because I like it, cabotage. It sounds like a portmanteau of cabbage and sabotage so kind of apt.

  5. The subject of this article. The disruption as a result of system failure brought about in attempting but failing to implement changes that will bring about the situation outlined in point 4. The fifth and final blow. The knockout punch.

However it gets worse. I keep reading articles and quotes about how idiots who voted for idiocy may react if they don’t get the stupidity they voted for. A related question that hasn’t been asked is this: how will those who voted against it, who have had to put up with ‘shut up and accept you lost’, and been told how wrong they are because the most dire predictions didn’t come true post referendum, told by by people seemingly unaware that those predictions were predicated on an immediate article 50 notification etc... what might the reaction be here particularly towards leave supporters if things turn out a lot worse than anyone imagined?

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Yes; implementing Brexit will be tough.

Saner heads say it really a decade's worth of work. The negotiators need to factor that in.

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The fact of the matter is Great Britain isn't a member of the criminal United States of Europe it's in complete violation of our constitution period! We don't need to be messing with any article 50 BS! Our government committed treason and continues to commit treason. Queeny is no longer legitimate as she has broken her coronation oath whether that was under duress needs to be determined.

Our government, legal system and media is totally corrupt and the real discussions about the facts are prevented from hitting the mainstream.

There mouths might be saying two to three years while the reality is going to be ten if they get their way, and if it goes that far there will be zero chance of an exit. If you're keeping yourself informed the current shenanigans involving the British armed forces with respect to European integration militarily (unification), procurement, maintenance and manufacturing contracts should be a big f-ing clue as to what's really going on! Also look at what's happening with the police and EU integration for more clues. Then look at the unlawful courts now operating completely outside of our Common Law process.

Some reading:

William Blackstone's - Commentaries on the laws of England
Dalzell Chalmers & Cyril Asquith - Outlines of constitutional law ; with notes on legal history
Kenn d'Oudney - Democracy Defined: The Manifesto 2016 (only available to purchase afaik)

William Dartmouth - Inconvenient Truths about UK Trade and The EU

Count Richard Nicolaus Coudenhove Kalergi - Praktischer Idealismus (German) 1925

British/English founding constitutional documents:
Magna Carta 1215
First Statute of Westminster 1275
Bill of Rights 1688 which is the statue law enactment of the Declaration of Right.
Act of Settlement 1700

no foreign prince, person, prelate, state, or potentate hath, or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm.

That quote from the The Declaration of Right, and the Bill of Rights establishes the fact that the coronation oath was broken and parliamentary members and the judiciary have and continue to commit treason, against the British people.

Queen Elizabeth II Oath 1953.

The Archbishop of Canterbury: Will you solemnly promise and swear to govern the Peoples of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, the Union of South Africa, Pakistan and Ceylon, and of your Possessions and other Territories to any of them belonging or pertaining, according to their respective laws and customs?

The Queen: I solemnly promise so to do.

"laws and customs" being the key as that is a fundamental foundation of our Common Law process.Great Britain is a well established Common Law jurisdiction. Our founding documents are enshrined in Common Law. The government have been are continue to be actively engaged in removing our Common Law system. There are a number of groups throughout the country actively involved in trying to protect our traditional system of common law. One group recently established the "Winchester Declaration" under the Rule of Law campaign which took place in Winchester on the 19th 11 2016.

The British people never voted to enter the Common Market let alone the current manifestation of the EU! Constitutionally such a vote would have been totally unlawful.

Audio evidence of sedition prior to the 1975 referendum Letters to the Times BBC interview with Norman Reddaway Evidence of sedition leading up to the 1975 referendum.

I could go on but I seriously doubt this is the best venue. Anyone with a serious interest would already be getting informed and actively involved.

If anyone reading this lives in Great Britain especially England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and you believe the BS about us not having a constitution you should do some research on the matter, before we lose it completely! Our ancestors fought a long and bloody battle to establish our Constitution founded on our Common Law heritage of age old laws and customs.

And anyone who thinks the EU is in anyway democratic is totally ignorant of the way the EU functions. One things for sure you will remain totally ignorant if you rely on the mainstream media to inform you. They are in on the gag!

Do you think the Dutch, French and Irish people are stupid? Every country that's voted said No to the EU and look where they are now. Read what's going on in other parts of Eastern Europe especially Hungry.

Look at the economic state of Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain and Ireland. They are being bombed back to the stone-age economically and the facade masking the decline of the UK is crumbling away at an increasing rate.

Things are brewing in France and Germany because the people are sick of it and want their sovereignty back! Hell Germany is still an occupied territory ffs. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRstBkr4IlU

The best possible scenario for the peoples of Europe is the complete and utter collapse of the EU - it already in its death throws. The only thing holding it up is political, legal, financial and media corruption!

A few crashed computer and bureaucratic systems will be the least of our worries.

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Do I really have to remind the people what happend about 75 years ago with stron, independant states in europe? Is it that hard to remember what lead to the second world war?

Sure.... those 2,000 fuckheads in Dresden are totally a voice one should be listened to.... NOT!
Even if Germany was occupied, who cares? It works! If it helps, end the concept of countries. Remove borders on a country level.

And loads of computers that could stall out the whole country. Some coolant management system at Sellafield, electrical grid management, etc.

Sure.... The poster on Facebook and twitter totally have to publish a counterstatement after publishing blatently wrong "news". Journalism is incredibly hard (I know some, and those guys are working their asses off all the time.), getting the uneducated, rebellious teenager to listen to what is happening in the world is even harder.
When you grow up in a filter bubble tho echo back your world views, you have become maximum ignorant but very, very vocal.

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You should give it a read. @Bzzzzz did a solid job on writing.

The supply chains will get very funky, yes.
Specifically for container shipping (in the sense of containers on ships), that will boost ports on the EU-"mainland". The EU is an import & export giant, hands the need for complex ports and transport infrastructure. Taking the UK out of the equation is simple: Jobs crumble in the UK while the same exact jobs rise in demand in the EU (Migration anyone?).
Two options:

  • You let your trained workers from the UK work in the EU (which in turn would require free exchange of goods, money and people. But as a result of the Brexit, those lines are cut.)

  • The workers who formerly worked in the UK now work in EU ports.

On the subject of international cargo transport by floating vessels:
Do the pro-brexit guys really think Maersk, Hapag-Lloyd, Evergreen Line or any other shipping company care if they need to sail ~400NM further away if they can save thousands of dollars on each container?
Wake up! That is how your much desired free market works! The UK took an axe and axed themself!

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I need to go be this a read when I get home.

I believe may said that it would be a staged exit. Honestly her 12 point plan is so generic it could be equally applied to any UK country on reasons to leave the UK. It's a shame she didn't expand on that since they used the same counter arguments that you can use for this exit.

The simple fact is we will be cutting ourselves off from certain benefits. And I'm again now considering my options in the coming years, with certain freedoms being removed with the exit that I'd like to keep I'm not sure where the best place is for me.

Thankfully the industry I work in (like the science research industry) is predominantly English spoken so my options are wide and varied.

This is I suppose the only plus for a number of key industries is that they can easily leave the UK to better pastures and the language won't change.

It will be interesting to see which industries will move out of the UK, no doubt the government may have to give incentives to keep them here at least in the short to medium term.

If you're only going back to the start of WWII you're neglecting older contributory historical events which are connected. Sure enlighten me with your knowledge! Make sure you cite and link your sources, and don't expect me to accept your unfounded opinions.

The Independent States in Europe were actually Sovereign Nation States with diversity. Now they are becoming a homogenised mass of failed states under the EU umbrella akin to Stalin's Russia.

Please explain how you think the democratic process works within the EU?

As a matter of interest when do you think the concept of a United States of Europe was formed and by which nations?

Can you describe to me what it was like to live in Europe prior to the formation of the Common Market which later morphed into the EU, based on your personal experience? And then do the same with respect to living in Europe after the EU state seized power?

You should try reading content from a wider collection of sources because there's a lot going on that never makes it to your TV and tabloids.

Who cares? Anyone who has an interest in the truth about what and why things are happening around them! It doesn't work that's the whole point of understanding, being informed and taking an interest, in what's actually going on beyond what's feed to you in media and embedded through indoctrinated education.

The significance is the fact that the German people do not have an independent sovereign government, their legal system if foreign to their original legal process which was far more aligned with the English common law, and Germany is still an enemy under the UN Charter see "enemy state clauses" [Articles 53 and 107]. The same goes for Italy and Japan. The only significant difference is Italy doesn't have a significant occupying force.

End the concept of countries and remove borders, lol are you related to Coudenhove-Kalergi by any chance?

Can you explain why you have zero interest in preserving the national heritage, customs and culture of your ancestors and home country?

Many of the 50 million who died in WWII did so to preserve their nation and avoid control by a foreign power.

And loads of computers that could stall out the whole country. Some coolant management system at Sellafield, electrical grid management, etc.[/quote]

Don't be a drama queen...it's like the fear porn of the Y2K bs all over again. If you think Sellafield et al would be impacted by a clean break from the EU you have a poor understanding. If what you're suggesting could even be possible then the problem isn't membership of the EU it's a redundancy and contingency issue. One would expect both those elements to be met as normal business practices, regardless of whether members of the EU or not.

Please explain what's hard about parroting what comes of the news wire? Honest journalism died years ago in the mainstream, but thanks to the internet it's making a resurgence, with honest independent reporters gaining ground. The mainstream can't compete or cope nor can the state, so they are attempting to regain control. They are way too late hopefully.

Please define "fake news" and alternative media?

You seem to be speaking from first hand experience and I concur that's exactly the impression you have conveyed.

@Eden

This book may help you establish a more balanced decision if that's a consideration of yours?

William Dartmouth - Inconvenient Truths about UK Trade and The EU

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Oh, I thought this was going to be a thread on the technical IT problems that Brexit will create.

It will be a shame if it gets locked because of drift into politics. Political points have been made without problems so far but can I ask we leave them parked and return to technical matters?

With regards to container shipping companies Brexit won't pose them too many problems on top of the ones they already have. Maersk have recently announced plans for digital inovation and have a large IT presence in the UK as well as internationally. Ironically with pound falling they will probably be hiring more UK techies.

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I am not willing to talk to a wall. Consider this discussion terminated.

All you did was calling everything a lie and throw loaded questions my way.

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I don't think Maersk is responsible for CHIEF (what the OP's on about), nor will they be able to offer a replacement. It's a government IT system. IBM's already signed a contract to produce a replacement (CDS). REEEEEEAAAADDDDD

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/chief-trader-import-and-export-processing-system

Sad that people have turned this topic to politics tho, complete BS.
This was about how a government IT system might cope with Brexit.

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Your admission of defeat is accepted. I didn't have high expectations of rational reply anyway to be quite honest. Ad hominem's and logical fallacies are a pretty good sigh things aren't going to result in a reasoned debate.

I think it will be quite obvious to anyone reading that I didn't call "everything" a lie in fact I never used the word lie once! I rebutted your assertions, and ask some very basic questions that you seem unable or unwilling to answer.

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Probably not nearly as many that move in

Do you think they will try to place the UK and a European tax haven and lax laws for corporations? I can see there being some benefits for certain companies, but it would seem that tax haven laws would really be what would bring people here.?

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If you're considering moving to mainland Europe, pick a country or region where TV shows aren't dubbed in their own language. In areas where they only use subtitles, people tend to be much better at speaking English (not to mention that you can actually enjoy the shows and movies too).
Of course at some point you'll have to start learning the local language.

I can only recommend the Northern half of Belgium. The Netherlands is okay too, but it's full of Dutch people.

Everyone loves low taxes
Except Corbyn

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This isn't what the subject matter was. This topic was specifically about the problems the government IT system CHIEF may face with Brexit, and the following quote is blatant evidence you didn't read the majority of my post and just went off the title. Disappointing.

Here's that quote:

Clean up your mess and go sit in the corner.

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Only time will tell who will gain or lose financially, but from an IT standpoint it's going to be a fun few years. I also wonder how it will affect the legality of the GCHQ's snooping on EU citizens.

Thanks for the further derailment.
@Wendell, iirc you run a tech consultancy business.
How would you like to be hired to produce something like CDS? Does IBM have a chance?

The answer is complicated. Government contracting at least in the US has a 50%+ overhead associated with it. Procuring a contract costs half the value of the contract on average.

Merit is almost irrelevant. These types of system it is very much "no one got fired for be ng Boeing g/Lockheed/IBM" but the reality is that these things are poorly defined and it is almost impossible to nail down all the little fiefdoms involved.

You could thread the needle with a program that is backward compatible and forward thinking but no one will notice.

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Cleaned up this thread a bit. Please keep the discussion on-topic (brexit, economics, tech, tech policy) and away from divisive political debate.

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