Chris Titus: Stop Using Apt

If you use Debian’s default ones, that’s going to be fast. But if you care about the project and want to minimize your usage on their servers, you use a mirror close to you. And those can be faster, depending on where you are. But sometimes, mirrors tend to get slow, like due to maintenance, or failed-over network connection that has to go through different hops, or hardware going bad for a few hours until it is fully replaced. Fastmirror is a nice feature to have. Also, sometimes the default debian repo can be sloooow, at least that was the case when I tried armbian, it was always dog slow, until I changed to a different mirror. But this only happened on aarch64, never had this problem with x86. Dunno why.

Which is why fastmirror is important. Instead of manually selecting a mirror which you think is closer, fastmirror actually checks if that’s the case.

Just another way of installing packages?
I believe his main argument is about speed.
APT is kinda slow but i personally don’t really see that as a negative point.
I mean DNF on Fedora or Redhat isn’t very fast either.

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Its a lot faster than apt in my experience. I of course enable the fastest mirror as that’s built in and I do use deltarpms to a high degree so it speeds up those transactions quite a bit. I do some tweaking to the PM configs of each distro I run so its not a fair out of the box stock for stock comparison as I should note

Speed is important to me. If it makes more than a few minutes difference. Im pretty down for it

Yeah i agree on that.

But it’s not really about minutes i guess.
However Nala does look like an interesting project.

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yeah I figure ill go in… break it. find a bug… contribute… uninstall it jk jk

I think im going to use it for an extended period of time and see how reliable it manages to be. The worst that will happen is I have to remove it and use aptitude to fix a few things and dpkg to reconfigure a few packages

Apt is what all the Europeans use because they run Debian.

Yum is what the rest of us working folks use.

/s

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:joy::+1:

Those are fighting words for some. Yeah honestly Red hat has been great on my hosting side. I don’t have any complaints but obviously that was going to be the case right? There was very little to fail. I don’t have any graphical elements in play

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Updating and installing software can’t be like that! Where’s the thrill, the excitement, the fear that you might break something if you don’t go through difficult to read least all in one line?

It’s a really interesting video and I’m surely going to install Nala on my “server”! Also love Christ Titus, the way he explains, keeps the tone if his videos like “it’s my opinion”.

Guess I’ll have to have another look at Yum, because the name alone still triggers ptsd of when Yum was released. Haven’t had to admin a RedHat system since those days so the trauma has stuck…

As to the topic at hand.

I still used apt-get, apt-cache, and friends, until rather recently, does that mean I qualify? :wink:

I’ve never had speed issues with Apt, probably still the fastest package manager I’ve used. In fact, most of his reasons feel kinda “forced”, or at least more like opinions rather than factual problems with Apt.

Nala is, for the most part, a fancy Apt/dpkg frontend. Neat, if you’re into that sort of thing, but it’s not as mind blowing upon reading the project page as the video makes it seem. There have been plenty over the years (like Aptitude, as already mentioned by Wendell).

Said fanciness seems like it would be liable to break in non-ideal terminal conditions, and I can’t help but wonder how it would perform on a slow terminal.

The history function seems potentially useful, but is no substitute for snapshots, and likely won’t help you if something gets really broken as it just uses apt to accomplish its goals.

It’s also a shame they don’t use native functionality to store this history, but rather a custom implementation. Meaning it’s neither portable nor will it “know” of anything done outside of Nala.

Parallel downloads are rather a debatable topic, and apt doesn’t have them for a good reason, given that it still doesn’t support them by default 7 years later, and that apt-fast isn’t available in Debian’s default repository I assume that reasoning still holds. Whether Ubuntu, or other apt-using distros hold the same opinion I don’t know.

Additionally most people will still be limited by their network connection, pulling more data from the same source is not going to make things faster for them (apt already pulls from different mirrors in parallel)

I disagree with your conclusion. I’d posit Nala is a nice UI for functionality apt mostly already provides, the added extras are either nice to haves (history), or things the apt devs explicitly do not want to support (parallel downloads from the same source), all packaged in a nice UI ( “de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum”).

Maybe I’d change my opinion after having used it, but the video doesn’t convince.

EDIT: found this, after writing the above so guess they’ve come around on the parallel downloads thing, or they consider that the userbase of this tool will be small enough they can overlook it (an apt dev does call it out as disagreeable per his opinion though, so we’ll see if anything happens should it become popular)

Additionally it’s interesting to note that an Apt dev explicitly mentions undo operations on package upgrades are explicitly not supported by the underlying infrastructure, nuking one of the benefits mentioned, but not demonstrated, in the video.

There’s also mention of a CVE-worthy bug, haven’t looked at that any further though.

Anyway, sticking with my conclusion: interesting tool, and nice UI for those that like it, but not as mind blowing as made out to be.

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Use SID (unstable) or go home. Debian SID is remarkably stable and that is what I have run as my daily since ~ 2005. It got more stable after the great Debian schism were a lot of developers went over to support Ubuntu.

APT comes from Debian. Well technically it was further developed by Canonical but it is just a smarter wrapper around apt-get

Funny. I also use ArchLinux for my gaming setup. While pacman is a little more difficult to use in my opinion, I would say that both are the epitome of what a package manager should be. SuSe comes close with Zypper2 but Zypper2 goes beyond package management.

I plan on trying to daily DragonFlyBSD on my x13 when it finally comes in.

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I run pacman, btw.

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InB4 the obligatory, I compile everything from source Gentoo/Slackware user.

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After watching the video, I get it. I basically see it as a, “If you are not going to take the time to use APT properly, then use NALA”. At the same time, there are some features that I think can better improve APT, but essentially there was pacman for APT that tried to do a lot of this stuff and bring some features of pacman over to Debian. I don’t know if that project is still maintained but there was an attempt.

Most people just use aptitude if APT is too advanced for them. If you want a full GUI then go with Synaptic. I think in general, most of the points made come down to poor system administration and maintenance. They are not bad points, but I think most of it is user related and not an issue with APT itself. Also, is seems that NALA is just using the features of the APT suite and managing them externally.

Example:
The undo feature is really nice, but it is not actually snapshotting anything, like Zypper. So if someone was not paying attention, like the Linus example that he mentions. NALA will still allow you to nuke your install. then if you go with the undo option, will it really reinstall your nuked packages? I feel that he could have attempted that to see if that works before claiming it as an awesome feature then moving one because I could see some people having a false sense of hope. Zypper would actually do a filesystem level snapshot and allow you to do a real rollback to the last known working state before the upgrade.

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The only problem I see with this is that you cannot revert a snapshot live, at least not with the default installation of most distros with / on one big partition. With the nala undo, you can do it live, unless your system crashes and burn, then you would need to use the snapshot anyway. Both have their own benefits and downsides.

I need to check that, I have so many issues with dkms on aarch64.

YUM is aliased to DNF by default so no need to change anything :stuck_out_tongue:

20 years of backwards compatibility. Debian should take notes.

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Both were about the same and resulted in frequent failures. The decision to move of arch was both informed and necessitated by this

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:yes:

I do use pacman

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I use debian testing for a lot of my servers (not exactly sid, but close), and I have unattended upgrades enabled, which sometimes I need to tend to.

I don’t really have a desktop (girlfriend’s taken over the home office on account of large screens, and my day is 80%+ in meetings with other people and teams and my programming language is mostly English in docs and slides and bugs and meeting notes, and so the gamestation/desktop sits collecting dust at the desk, sad… :frowning: )


I digress, apt is fine. aptitude helps you learn all the different ways you can shoot yourself in the foot with apt.

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LOL man I don’t know why that struck me so funny when I read it. Sorry man that’s rough lol

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