AM5 w/ Win VM : CPU/Mobo/RAM recommendations + ccd/x3d musing

Hardware Hub Build a PC
, , ,
1

Hi there !

My current rig is an i7 3770K on Win7, so I expect to use my next build for a long time as well (with some possible upgrades along the way, of course, whether because something broke or just can’t keep up… typically the GPU :exploding_head:).
Thanks to a belated Christmas pr€s€nt, I can now aim for AM5 instead of starting with AM4.
The idea is to (finally !) switch to Linux full-time and game on a W10 AME VM… possibly even on a Linux VM instead of on the host ?
I already have a number of items, and am mostly needing to pinpoint CPU/cooler, motherboard and RAM.

Anyway, more details later, let’s start with everyone’s favorites: lists !

Basics

  • Budget: Not too much, but it’s also an investment of sorts, so I’ll assess as I go
  • Country/Currency: France/€
  • Favored retailers: Materiel.net (fr) / Caseking (de) / Amazon (fr/de) if I have no other choice… I’m open to other stores as long as they have a proven and clean track record
  • Use cases: Gaming / Experimenting on VM stuff / Mild image editing (GIMP)
  • Overclocking: Nope
  • Watercooling: Nope
  • Operating Systems: Linux for host (TBD, but NOT anything related to Ubuntu), and depending on whether a Linux VM for gaming makes sense, possibly Fedora there (I don’t/won’t use Steam, in case that can become relevant at some point). As for the Win VM, that’d be Win10 AME, since there’s no way in hell I’d use a vanilla Win10+. That means no XBox Game Bar, but more on that later…

Gaming

  • Resolution: 1440p as much as I can, falling back to 1080p when there’s no other choice
  • Settings: Hopefully enough to not be choppy, but since I already have a(n old) GPU and can’t afford a new one, I can adapt
  • Types of games played: I fancy FPSes the most, but also dabble with RPG, Tactical, Action…

Peripherals

I’m all set on that front.

Speaking of being set…

Parts I already have
Case Corsair Obsidian Series 800D ATX Full Tower
GPU AMD ‎Radeon RX 6900 XT 16 GB
NVMe Solidigm P44 Pro 2TB x2
PSU FSP Hydro Ti Pro 1000W
Fans Mgmt Lamptron Fan Controller Touch

Parts I need help with

Here’s what I’m currently looking at, scratching my head:
Motherboard Gigabyte X670E AORUS MASTER ~470€ @Amazon FR
Motherboard Asus ROG STRIX X670E-E GAMING WIFI ~430€ @Amazon DE
CPU AMD Ryzen 9 9900X ~460€ @Caseking
CPU AMD Ryzen 9 7950X3D ~680€ @Caseking
CPU AMD Ryzen 9 7950X ~480€ @Caseking
RAM G.Skill Flare X5 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-6000 CL30 ~255€ @Materiel.net
CPU Cooler Thermalright Peerless Assassin 120 SE ~44€ @Caseking

  • Motherboards
    The 2 I listed are of interest to me because they have 3
    PCI slots, and having only 2 would be too limiting (I intend to upgrade my network eventually, and will need a 10Gb NIC for that, for instance). ASRock would have been my first choice, but the AM5 Taichis have only 2 slots…
    I know IOMMU groups are not too bad on the Aorus Master, but I don’t know about the Asus one. Perhaps some other boards would fit the bill as well ?

  • RAM
    I only listed the Flare X5 because I don’t really now what to look at.
    From what I understand DDR5-6000 is the sweet spot for AM5, and 2 sticks is less troublesome than 4.
    Timings-wise, CL30 seems ok… or is it ?
    64GB is what I’m interested in, but I could be persuaded to go for 48
    GB as well… though the ones I saw seem to be at ludicrous speed… and price :cold_sweat:

  • CPUs & the CCD/X3D conundrum
    First, let me state that I don’t understand one bit about these two technologies.
    I know that at some point the performance of the 9900X was rubbish (or was it all the 9000Xs ?), and that it’s been corrected recently, but that’s about it.
    I don’t need to know how they work in and out, only how they work in a VM.
    Typically, can all the CCDs (if there’s actually more than one) and the X3D be passed to the VM, and if yes… should they ?
    Since my Win10 would be Ameliorated, there wouldn’t be the XBox Game Bar, which for a VM some people say it’s needed, while some other that it’s pointless… :sweat:
    I like both 7950Xs because they still hold it against more recent (and possibly more expensive) models, and the 7950X3D has an edge because of more perfs and lower tdp.
    The x800X3D models have 8 cores, and that means that I can’t pass them all to a VM (or can I ?) and thus would lose much performance compared to bare-metal, which I’m not interested in when it comes to Windows.
    That’s why I fitted the 9900X in there, but I’d be happy to read what people think on the subject.

  • CPU Cooler
    It seemed like the Peerless Assassin could manage AM5 CPUs with no issues, at a sensible price.
    I’m not even considering Noctua, exactly because of price.
    Any recommendations are welcome.

I’ll stop there for the time being, as my post is already too long :wave:

2

I have an Asus ROG Crosshair X670E Extreme. I did not like the IOMMU groupings. But the last time I updated the BIOS was a while ago and the system is in its disassembled state right now.

3

Thank you for your input.

I did some searching, but couldn’t find more recent IOMMU postings for this model, not to mention that the board itself seems not to be sold anymore :person_shrugging:

Checking the thread you linked, it seems that the dual-chipset aspect of the X670/E (and X870E) boards is being an annoyance when it comes to IOMMU groupings…

So the only options would be:

  • Stick to X670/E or X870E and make-do with one group getting too many devices :sweat:
  • Go for B650E or X870 to get better groups separation, but get limited by connectivity/drives (lanes) :thinking:
  • Wait an undefined period of time to see if BIOS updates for X670/E and X870E can alleviate the issue :alarm_clock:
  • Travel through time to skip the waiting part :rocket:
4

You’re not getting better connectivity except that granted by artificial segmentation. Any additional ports you get are ultimately funneled through the narrow PCIe 4.0 x 4 chipset interface. I really wish they wouldn’t make daisy chaining chipset chips (X670E/X870E) a precondition for USB4, USB 3.2 Gen 2x2, 10GbE, and PCIe 5.0 across all CPU lanes. The B-series chipset are fine, except that the motherboard designers and/or AMD insists on withholding the goodies.

5

Well, I suppose it’s “just” a matter of working around the 2nd chipset grouping, then.

As per your IOMMU groups summary (which is understandably outdated), all those groupings look more or less the same when it comes to the 2nd chipset.
One can only hope that BIOS updates bring improvements on that front at some point…

On that subject, for the Aorus Master, the most recent information I could find on the web is @DS_DV’s thread, but the latest update added BIOS version F12a, which… I can’t find on Gigabyte’s websites (it goes from F12 to F13a), but it was in july, 2023.
Latest BIOS update is F33g (2024/12/19), of course with no details on how groupings could have evolved since F12 :person_shrugging:, and DS_DV hasn’t been around L1 since mid-2024 :cry:

6

hi (:
i updated the thread with F33a which is also quite outdated.
but since there are only improvements for 9k series and no security fixes i am still waiting for F34 release.

If you remind me i happily update the thread again :slight_smile:

1 Like
7

Thanks for pitching in !

Apparently you copied the groupings from F12a, so I imagine you didn’t see any differences in that regard…
One thing you copied over that doesn’t belong, though, is the line right before the groups listing, and which had me confused for a minute (since AGESA is now past 1.2.0.2) :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

again back to agesa .7 AMD AGESA 1.0.0.7a Patch A

8

ah whoopsi yeah that line was a copy paste mistake if its identical than nothing has changes so far :frowning:

if i would buy a board again i would follow the linux community advice and go with asrock.

but i needed the 3 display outputs on the mobo at that time :confused:

9

Well, ASRock would have been my first choice as well, but even though I don’t actually need 3 GPUs, I want to keep some options/possibilities open, and having only 2 PCIe slots on an (E-)ATX board is simply preposterous :reee:

Out of curiosity, though, what are your beefs with the Aorus Master ?

10

88 and 142 W PPT, yes, but the Phantom Spirit 120’ll run a little quieter and extend to 162 W PPT better. Air in general’s not great for 230 W TDP.

Granite Ridge’s been fine on Linux since (before) launch day. Windows 11 still has epic scheduler meltdowns capable of dropping 30-40% of perf but, between OS patches and AGESA 1.2.0.2, it’s gotten less likely to fail and less likely to fail as badly. Falls apart with P+E cores too, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

ASRock has quite a few three slot AM5 boards, also still some fours. Just not the Taichis. B650 and B850 LiveMixer are the most capable triple slots. MSI also does a bunch of triples and quads and would typically be second choice after ASRock.

Yeah, it’s relatively unlikely X670(E) adds anything useful to B650. If you have USB 4 use cases or need the 5.0 bifurcation X870E makes sense. If not, then it’s unlikely X870(E) is a meaningful improvement on B650 or B850.

Besides Gigabyte’s penchant for self bricking BIOSes, unsecured backdoors, and advocacy it’s fine to continue selling exploding power supplies because they’re functioning normally? Nothing major, really, as that’s arguably less bad than Asus.

11

There’s also another factor to consider (which most people will not care about): taking advantage of Thunderbolt/USB4 ports not being built into the motherboard, but the motherboard still having a Thunderbolt header. USB 2.0 devices are served by a separate USB controller and the built-in Thunderbolt/USB4 may use USB controller(s) from very inconvenient IOMMU group(s).

The problem arises when you have a nice and tidy setup involving VMs, passed through USB controllers, and a Thunderbolt/USB4 dock. Your plugged in USB devices may not show up in the correct VM depending on what you plugged in and which port you plugged it into.

1 Like
12

Hmm, not sure if any B850s are set up that way. Don’t think any of ASRock or MSI’s are. Of the ASRock AM5s that do have a header

  • X670E Steel Legend, PG Lightning
  • B650E Steel Legend, PG Riptide
  • B650 LiveMixer, Pro RS

could be another plus for B650 LiveMixer.

1 Like
13

tbh i don’t see any xD
i was like 1st week adopter of AM5 and i only chose it because it had the mentioned three display outputs for the iGPU (Display Port + HMDI + USB C with dp alt Mode)

Every other board at the time only had 2 outputs on the motherboard. (i have 3 Displays so i needed 3) i payed a senselessly overpriced 600bucks or so which was double! the price to the next best option.

I don’t use vfio anymore i switched back to dual-booting.
Not because it did not work but because i need windows so few times a year that the reduced complexity of the setup is far less maintenance.

The Main thing was EAC and Battleeye starting to block gaming inside VMS. ( Using VRChat in a Virtual Machine ) Essentially look that “pafish” is as green as possible

There is a good write up how to bypass this problem by the VR Chat Devs. But i just switched to proton gaming on Linux and ignore the games which don’t work.

14

Good point.
I was actually going back and forth between those two models, and the Phantom Spirit seems to be somewhat higher-end indeed. And it’s only 2€ more expensive :exploding_head:

Any differences on W10 (as a VM, of course, if that changes anything when it comes to shortcomings) compared to W11 ?

Does the 9900X look that bad, though ?
I have to say I find it more and more appealing, more so since it’s 300€+ cheaper than the 7950X3D :face_with_symbols_over_mouth:
Now that 9950X3D and 9900X3D are coming, hopefully prices for “older” models will go down a bit.
But the waiting game is our worst enemy when we start buying stuff for a new rig as time goes by, instead of getting it whole.

Since I don’t really need what X870E brings over X670E, I’d probably stick to the latter, over the B chipsets.
My main concern about having less than 3 PCIe slots is that if/when I manage to upgrade my network to 10GB, that’d be one less slot left for possible evolutions (to be fair, I’m not envisioning it as of now :person_shrugging:), which would mean zero slots left on a typical board with 2 PCIe slots.
Now, something could be said about the Asus ProArt Creator boards having 10Gb, but (a) I’d rather have SFP+ than Ethernet for that; (b) The more I read about those boards, the less I’m interested in them… and even Asus as a whole.
Also, while X870E brings WiFi 7 and USB4, which I don’t care about, the X870E Taichi has 5 GbE as well, which isn’t 10 Gb nor SFP+, but is still better than 2.5 Gb and is not Intel.

I suppose I could just bite the bullet and get a Taichi, but DS_DV inadvertently reminded me or something that might be of some importance:

The thing is, I do have 3 screens as well :sweat:
I only use one for gaming, though (1440p), while the other two are for web browsing, Discord… stuff like that.
They’re also rather crappy (1080p + 1280x1024 :older_man:), and they would most likely stay on the Linux host… if that’s even achievable.
Looking at the Taichi boards, they have just one HDMI out for iDG, while the Aorus Master has DP+HDMI (also they both have USB-C).
I can imagine I can have both the crappy displays on the host and perhaps even the big one when it’s not attached to a VM… right ? :face_with_spiral_eyes:

TL;DR: I’m possibly even more confused now…

PS:

I’m not one to shy away from principles, if only out of principle, but my track record with Gigabyte has been less… bumpy.
Granted, I was out of the hardware game for most of the last decade, but even my “current” motherboard (G1.Sniper 3) has been solid all those years :person_shrugging:
Tunnel vision, I know…

15

You know you could go sp5 and solve almost all of your issues.
The 9015 is around $600.
Motherboards are mostly $650 to $750. ie:
https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813183819

The epyc 9xx5 is 40% faster per core than the epyc 9xx4. But there are the older CPUs available used if your workload leans that direction.

and you have up to 128 lanes of PCIe5 available to do whatever with.

16

Not like one more heatpipe costs much. Given the short life of Thermalright’s fan bearings it’s reasonable to add a couple P12s to their prices. Which is still less than most of the competing coolers that run warmer and may not come with better bearings anyways.

My experience is 10’s scheduler’s stable and doesn’t exhibit 11’s deranged episodes.

I’m quite happy with the one currently on my desk for the computationally intensive stuff I do. At least ties 5950X, which is a perfectly respectable two gen increment, and some of my main workloads get 3x the throughput. The single threaded perf’s pretty nice for slamming through not modern code at times, too.

I’ve another build for similar purposes coming up in a few months. 9900X, 9950X, 9900X3D, and 9950X3D are the candidates at this point.

MSI’s B850s are are 5 Gb Realtek. There’s other 5 GbE X870s. For non-ProArt 10 GbE down you’d need to find an ASRock Rack board and run it at server LFM. Even if it’s possible to get the board I’d say probably not worth it given how flaky ASRock’s rack side tends to be.

Broadly speaking, for integrated graphics

  • X870E: HDMI + two USB-C DisplayPorts
  • B850: HDMI
  • 600 series: HDMI + one DisplayPort unless it’s got USB 4

It’s my impression passing through the 6900 XT and leaving the iGPU should be fine. But I don’t run VMs, so best if someone who does answers that.

17

Cheers !

Outputs should indeed be plenty for only two small displays, so I’m not too worried about it (anymore ?).
Heck, if push comes to shove, I can probably have one of the small screens set on the dGPU, and connect it to the host from inside the VM, if need be…

Regarding CPUs, I like the 9900X for its simplicity, but how the CCD(s) and X3D can be used within a VM (and if there’s even a point to it) is still quite a fuzzy business :woozy_face:

If anyone can shed some light on that subject, please ELI5 (well, ELI7, perhaps) :bowing_man:

Er… would that be Antec, Arctic, Noctua… ?
Every brand seems to have their P12 :smile:
Arctic’s seems the most interesting of the lot, though.

Any comments on the Phanteks M25, while we’re at it ?
I already have a bunch of T30s on my wish-list.

While I like the idea, there’s not many EPYC stuff to be found in my region, from the looks of it, but most stores I know are for plain regular consumers, as opposed to enterprises and server stuff…
I’ve seen a couple threads around L1 about crazy rigs based on EPYC, but that’s way out of my league in so many ways… :scream:

1 Like
18

Arctic P12 PWM PST 0dB, by default. P12 Max if the higher end’s needed but the Phantom Spirit doesn’t start to put up much hum with couple P12 rev4s until ~1200 RPM, which is usually plenty. P28 makes a good hum breaker but is best with slits cut for the clips.

The other interesting P12 is the Thermaltake P12 Pro. I don’t know of any good data on the M25.

1 Like
19

CPU : X3D since its lower power
RAM : 4800 to 5600 should be fine and get more sticks you plan to virtualise so more VMs could be prioritised
Cooler: Deep Cool Assassin is also option but you need a better case…
Motherboard: Save money with B650 … Else ProArt over ROG if you go Asus…
Not sure if there is any negative against MSI … But LTT Linux channel should ideally review boards from all MSI … At present it is more ASRock since Asrock respond to the LTT team and provide better response on technical issues as far as Linux is concerned.

20

That’s indeed one thing I like about X3D, but the main issue (besides price), as I mentioned in my previous message, is how to manage it (and/or CCD) in a
VM.

The VM that will get the most resources would be the gaming/Win10 one.
The other ones would be of smaller footprints, typically a few Gs of RAM, couple
CPUs, and unlikely to be all run together, so 64 GB would be plenty.

Well, I’m not going to change my perfectly-functional case on the possibility that a cooler (which doesn’t seem that much interesting over the Phantom Spirit) might be too tall for it.
To be fair, it would most likely be a tight fit, but yeah, I do like the Thermalright coolers, and not just for their prices :grin:

Of all the parts I’m trying to figure out, the motherboard is the one I don’t intend to skimp on, as it’s the most annoying one to change as time goes by (and of course a bunch of other parts depend on it).
So while I only have PCIe 4.0 dGPU and NVMes at the moment, it will hopefully change in the future, and I’d be too limited on that front with B650/E.

I’m currently leaning slightly towards X870E Taichi, for its IOMMU groups (though they usually are about X670/E… would they be shared between the two models ?), of course, but also because of the aformentioned more permissive Ethernet port… not to mention that both Xx70E models can be had around the (roughly) same price in my region :person_shrugging: