Here's a link to the video that I just watched https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x72CANa6X6k. I know it's not something that happened to me, but to see it from 3rd person's perspective it creates a bad image of something we hope could be better in the future. I am completely aware that it's a part of the development process and not something to be worried about a lot. But consider this, windows 10 being such a pain and with all those walled garden nonsense, Vulkan and Linux seem to be a solution.
Coming to the point of discussion, it's not easier for everyone to install Linux and just start working immediately, most of the time we have to run through some hops and snafus to achieve a proper productive bug-free working platform and it's completely fine because we intend to do that, we want to be somewhere better than where we are headed at present, isn't that our goal, make this world a better place and make people understand the netegrety of things. But atleast the community should understand. Atleast help those who are trying to use Linux and teach other who may want to try Linux. But I have herd this happen many times and it has happened to me as well, in fact Logan has made a rant about it. So I wanted to know what do you guys over here think about this, can someday Linux community will understand, or it will be the same.
Also when I say community I mean the entire Linux community, I know not all people are hypocrites, but being an unit at such times is really important, or even if someday, say someone gets his head right and makes a better linux with proper driver support and gaming and productivity capabilites and say that would cost 200$ I am ready to pay for such an operating system rather than paying for windows nonsence.
Guys please let me know your views on this. Thankyou.
Paragraphs man... Use them.
Also. I don't get the big deal. So some guy encountered an as$h0le on the internet and got banned from a community? That happens all the time. Welcome to the internet. People are as$h0les when they aren't face-to-face with the person they are speaking to.
Yeah, I guess that's true, and sorry for not using paragraphs, I was little too heartbroken after watching that video, since that has happened to me a lot while installing linux, what else to say. :(
This is a natural event that happens with projects that are driven more by pride than by money.Some devs are just too full of themselves to think that they may have done something wrong. I am not saying that profit driven projects are not full of bugs, windows is evident of that. However, when bugs may mean less money, it is generally thought that you should get rid of as many as possible.
There are always trade-offs when switching OS's. It just comes down to what you will tolerate and what you wont.
I have to agree with @ProSonicLive but I also think in general there are two big issues with Linux.
People wanting to switch to Linux being put under the impression that Linux is a complete and total replacement for Windows - and it isnt yet. For productivity it basically is - if you are prepared to switch a few programs. For gaming it is not. Some games wont work with out screwing around, some wont work at all. Yet. Then the Windows fanbois go back to Windows and complain about how shit Linux is because they couldnt just throw a disk in and install COD or some shit.
Windows users as a general rule are lazy. They expect Linux to work the same way as Windows because thats how they are used to things working. Also because they are lazy they tend to flood forums with questions that have already been answered rather then search for the information that is readily available. In turn the Linux community gets sick of spoon feeding the converts and many forums tell them to piss off.
As previously mentioned, pride is a reason for this type of behavior. but the other part of it comes to arrogance and blind loyalty.
Contrary to popular belief, Linux isn't the top of the mill OS to use. Every Linux user likes to think it's easy but they forget that they've been using it for so long that's why it comes easy to them. it doesn't dumb things down for you. depending on the distro / community you're on your own. and the lack of compatibility with certain hardware is stupid. (Broadcom, Nvidia for example)
A lot of Linux users (not saying all) have blind loyalty and arrogance when it comes to Linux. they can't see nothing good from anything unless it's open source. and they feel that because they use Linux, they are better than everyone. and it's not how things have to be, there's a use-case for everything. Linux isn't perfect, neither is Windows, and neither is OS X. it's whatever get's the job done better. Linux can't do everything. Linux will grow, but the behavior will remain the same in my opinion as it grows. nothing will change.
The Irony about Linux is people that have their distros preferences, For example your have your Arch Users (Myself, and I'm sure many others here) , your OpenSUSE users (We had a guy on the forum who is an awesome guy if you needed help with SUSE but he left the forum), your Mint users (New Windows users who wish to try out Linux) and so on. they will argue about why their distro is better or why people should used their prefer distro, so the communities are somewhat divided in that aspect. but if you say Linux sucks. ALL OF THEM will be triggered and come together lol
Overall just used what's best for the job, and ignore the idiots who are blind to reason.
I agree with some of your points and disagree with other. Now consider this, when you say operating system, it's meant to work well, at least, the installation of basic software and drivers to make use of it. Isn't that true, coming to gaming and other things, well that requires a lot of research and reading and it's not that people are lazy, it's just people get discrete information on different forums. For instance, a couple of days back when I was trying to ALSA drivers(for Realtek audio) for my Linux mint installation but, believe me, I couldn't get it work. My entire day went with that. Somewhere it was said the GCC compiler version is supposed to be changed, and somewhere you need to edit the configure file before running make command, somewhere it said you might not have the specific version of make to compile the application, but nowhere I could find the errors I was getting, after posting it in Linux mint forums, they said the ALSA drivers were last updated in 2005 which may not support many modern devices, so you can see there lies a part of my mistake and the driver support is terrible. By the way, it was a laptop Lenovo Y510p
I have a few thoughts on this.
The Architect dev has a similar attitude as some (not all) of the Arch devs in the development of his thing. Users aren't a priority, devs are. Its well known that Arch is made for arch devs by arch devs and that happens to align with a lot of people. But users aren't their goal. He seems to have a similar attitude, works for me, it must be you, cant be my software. That's not a Linux issue (well kind of), its a shitty developer issue who's to high on his horse and wont accept feedback.
We had a few issues on the forums with people having the Linux is better convert everyone at all costs problem. Led to the creation of this
https://forum.teksyndicate.com/t/be-a-good-gnu-linux-advocate-on-these-forums/
I disagree with your question of why is the linux community always just too mean. There not, in fact its the opposite id say.
You see the bad, and the bad gets reported, but the good is never reported. Theres entire IRC networks who's sole reason is community and knowledge and helping people and working together.
You can look to these forums to see that most of the time the Linux/Free Software community here is good and helpful.
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the other issue he had is about support and stability.
He moved to windows 10 because it works for him, but hes just the Linux user thats saying well it works for me in that sense. Windows 10 has been horrific for many people.
I also disagree with his thought that the OS doesn't matter its the apps that count (completely disagree). The OS controls everything your computer does, its the central nervous system, its absolutely vital it works for you not against you, that includes privacy and security. But that's a different topic.. kind of.
His issues with his distros I can bring down to this.
For reference:
manjaro, architect are based off of Arch
Mint is based off of Ubuntu
The Arch based distros. Well, there not stable, and never will be. I wont disagree that it works for lots of people, but, there is no infrastructure around making arch stable, if they push a OS breaking package you'll never know unless your looking for it or your system breaks.
There also not configured out of the box completely, he praises Windows for just working but uses Arch based distros that require manual modification to work. its not happening, the Arch installer devs cant account for every possible scenario, they cant make a "just works" distro. So Arch based distros was never for him.
As for Mint.. Its Mint. Its not a bad distro but its plagued with issues. They have 2 developers. 2! Against how many for Windows?
The issue is he chose distros that have small footprints, are overstretched, or just don't have the things he wants in mind as project goals. He chose the wrong distro.
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He has some good points, but I think they are mis-directed.
Forgetting his choice of distros, the bugs he has experienced are mainly down to a few hardware issues that could have been fixed upstream or as he mentioned probably already have but the software he has is to old.
I have a hell of a time getting windows to recognize one of my old sound cards, in Linux it just works, so his experience is not universal, I think its just a few built up things from a few bad apples has got him where he is.
A few examples of good:
I have a bug in GNOME right now that I found the current bug report on and added feedback. Its fixed in GNOME 3.20 already but still, current stable is still getting updates. And i wasn't banned.
Krita is a shining example of software done right. They take feedback, there community oriented, they get the community involved, they even recently put a good article out on how to help triaging bugs for them https://krita.org/item/ways-to-help-krita-bug-triaging/
GNU is good! :p
The great thing is you can say that about any OS.
Ill advocate for Linux all day. But ask me to find 10 issues with each OS and ill find you 10 game breaking issues in Linux, Windows, OSX, FreeBSD that would stop someone from using them.
There all bad, if your looking for it.
I think the issue your looking at here is perception, and that people wont give people the real deal of what to expect. The first thing I say to someone whos knows nothing at all is GNU/Linux is not Windows. its a different OS. People know this about OSX already, somehow they dont for Linux.
Its not like Linux cant do the things people want. I play 95% of my games on Linux at just as good or better performance. It depends on the use case. If things keep going they way there going, your two points (or point 1 at least) will be obsolete.
were at the statge where we have all these windows only games laying around, and a large chunk of new games being cross platform. It just needs to keep being pushed. Allt he engines support cross platform, they just need to use it. But old games will almost never get native Linux ports with a few exceptions. thats just obvious, or maybe it needs to be made obvious.
Heres the issue I have, you should never have needed to go through that crap. GCC.. to compile a bloody audio driver, wtf?
(btw, my solution to you is to buy a cheap known good Linux audio card. The time wasted getting your built in audio to work is more expensive than a new card that works. Unless your goal was to improve the driver)
Theres again two problems. Being sold windows hardware, and manufacturers not providing documentation.
Its a sad state, a lot of hardware was made for Microsoft and never meant to work with anything else.
A good example is the Killer "Gaming" NICs, they never worked in Linux, they were purely Windows hardware for Windows PCs requiring software drivers that only worked in windows.
Yet it was generic hardware, but what does that do, it means your hardware is locked into a platform (windows) and you have no choice but to use it or buy new hardware.
Luckily some really smart Linux loving community loving people reversed engineered the killer nics and have made drivers which have improved greatly in the last couple of releases of the Linux kernel.
Its an example of why things like Free Software and open standards are important. Linux isnt perfect because of many reasons, but even with vendor locking Windows is just as imperfect.
Fedora rules! Use it! Its actually up to date and better than everything! *runs away*
Can't be better said, can't agree with you more. I guess his frustration with Linux, made him say that it's the application that matters not the OS. Also, the choice of his distro was wrong. Regarding that sound card thing that you mentioned, I would like to say something, Linux works pretty well for legacy hardware, at least, it works for me, I know there will be people who will disagree, but I have a laptop(Dell Inspiron N4010) which has 3rd gen i3 and 2 GB RAM,200GB HDD and fedora 21 runs butter smooth without any problems, but on some modern hardware it's a pain to get things work. Thanks for such a splendid reply/explanation.
This is true, but it comes back to how its given across, because Linux works very well on most modern hardware.
It comes back to the documentation, manufacture and lock-in issue. Locked down hardware is hard to use unless you use it with what your told to use it with (its a freedom issue).
things like secure boot, propitiatory hardware chips, US patent law (of all things, yes! patent law) are made to lock things down.
Android for example only works because Google has the power to get manufacturers to provide binary blobs for their hardware to work on Linux. Think of that sentence. Google, cant even get manufacturers to release source code for their drivers, not hardware, just the drivers. Google.
We are lucky that the x86 platform is somewhat open and was around when the idea of closed off drivers and documentation was a bit stupid.
Sorry to possibly be going slightly off topic, but just to finish off my thought, This is the reason that software freedom (and hardware freedom these days) is so important. without control over our computers we have no control over what they do, and that brings me back to my very original point about the OS and how he was wrong in thinking it wasn't as important, its vital that its open and in our control because it sees and does everything for us.
There has been a high barrier for entry for a long time, the bar has been lowered so the "quality" of people/questions in the community has lowered.
There's also the forum problem where people try and quash new threads/questions because they're "too simple" or covered before.
Also every program has a manual with the answers to 90% of questions asked on forums/irc --> rtfm.
Hopefully not here! :)
That's absolutely true, frankly, I have not been to many forums, but to whichever I have been I have been I have never seen people such polite and interactive members and especially they share such abundant amount of information, I am really happy that I really belong to such a place. Thank you to all the members of these forums and thank you to all those who made this possible.
I think in this case, the problem was that Architect does not have a formal bug reporting system. That's especially unfortunate, because new Linux users directed to Architect as the "easy way" to try Arch are not likely to have good bug reporting etiquette.
The first thread mentioned in the video begins with two bugs (not related to each other), then someone else interrupts to ask how to uninstall VirtualBox. The second thread is not really a bug report at all, he's mainly informing the developer that he's not going to use the software anymore. It's all completely disorganized.
And ironically, I think the guy complaining was the one being mean. Seems like he has a bone to pick with the Architect developer:
I had a feeling the more features you put in, The more likely you are to
miss some stuff. Hate to be that guy but..... Told ya so, LOL!!!More features in, more bugs out. Seems to be the way these smaller projects go.
this is what always happens with small projects. You end up with an issue that seems to be isolated, and because you don't have a large user base, not enough people have the issue so you can't verify that it's a problem, so you automatically assume the issue is with the user. That's typical of small projects.
Try to learn from the mistakes of other failed projects. Don't repeat
their mistakes. I fear you're starting to go down that same path.
This condescending tone is just not appropriate. That's why he didn't get a good response.
I've Manjaro for 4 months prior to saying you know what? fuck it, Let me throw away my broadcom Wi-Fi card. Pick up an intel card, and install Arch. @Eden was a witness, I did pester him a bit when it came to some of the stuff, and I did struggle trying to get it installed. after doing a bit of research and a bit of reading. I managed to install Arch Linux and it was such a rewarding (yet tedious experience).
As for why Arch, it's an excellent start if you like customizing things down to the apps you want on your system or what you want on your system. and the community is great.
Though what I don't like about the Wiki is it explains things to you as if you have prior knowledge about Linux. I wish it properly explained everything and why you must do it.
Eh it happens with everything the more niche you go. Ever tried to casually play mtg? There's always that one guy who basically strokes himself off being a sore winner
As a Arch and now a Manjaro user, it is a true shame about the attitude that devs can have.
Currently in my opinion, if you want a "user friendly" arch experience, you have to go with Antergos or Apricity.
You COULD safely say that Ubuntu is the most stable/all round friendly distro, and I mean Ubuntu with Unity. It has corporational support from Canonical AND the community, that can be a good blend.
To his point of saying Windows just works and Arch doesn't, well, people who want an OS to JUST WORK shouldn't try Arch. It won't JUST work the majority, if not all the time.
My non-tech savvy Father uses and loves Linux Mint Cinnamon, that of course has it's problems. There are "just works" options out there in the Linux world, but Arch is not one of those options IMO.
EDIT: Another thought, in my personal experience, openSUSE Leap 42.1 (Even KDE) has been the overall most stable experience for me. It seems some people forget about that, I could be wrong though.
This. I can't believe anyone would side with guy with an attitude like. Does he think this is customer support for a paid product? Not only that, he provides little to no useful feedback for actually troubleshooting the issue, and his focus is on the rant about leaving because he thinks the project and the team sucks. I would have banned or at least ignored him if I were in the dev's position.
I would have to agree with you guys his comments seamed a bit backhanded and the information he gave was very lacking no error report or computer system specs I mean what dose a dev have to go on. Oh your product doesn’t work on my particular system I might try this again when you fix your mess that's real helpful. That being said I do belive the dev could have also approached this in a less argumentative way. Something along the lines of we are sorry this issn't working for you this is a constantly growing project and like anything that changes rapidly there are bound to be some issues we would like to see if we can help you fix this issue but we are going to need more information. And then go into troubleshooting . But like the guy said this wasn't his first post and if his first post was anything like this one I could see why the dev my be fed up with him.