Why don't we use a block chain to vote?

If we want to get a bit into hypotheticals; the most efficient system that could perform the work would be AI.

But it would need to be an sentient AI that is tailor made to understand your likes, dislikes, and values privacy concerns notwithstanding.

Then it could distill the info into a few blurbs for you to hit yes/no on.

But making that work is impossible with current humans.

The underlying forever ledger could still be the blockchain though because decentralized systems are quite resilient.

But they would need to happen at the same time.

Also, even with all the best technology mistakes till happen.

Like what happens when someone is not actually dead but gets added to the Death Master File. It can take years to get it fixed in the meantime you’re fucked. All because Janice in accounting fat fingered your SSN.

Credit Zombie

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A personal AI would be nice but what if we just picked a representative.

Imagine the user interface for this whole thing was set up like a social media page, you could pick a representative, if you don’t want to be involved, your vote just mirrors your representative (that sounds enough like the old system so as not to be to confusing).

But can change your representative at any time, and if you want to vote on individual bills, you can.

See your representatives voting history ect… It’s all right there.

Can of worms? How about dumpster fire from hell!

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The US political landscape does have an undisclosed amount of individuals who have integrity, a very strong regard of democratic values and a deep desire to work for the benefit of all, not just their own bank account :roll_eyes:

They do deserve some credit, otherwise you’d be exactly spot on :wink:

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are these people in the room with us now?

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It should in theory be possible to create a blockchain that generates one vote ticket for every person that needs to vote and then tie that ticket to whatever choice you would like. Basically, think of it having a bitcoin wallet but instead of the ledger recording your bitcoin balance it records your

The problem? Well, a state actor such as Russia or China could easily launch a successful 51% attack, especially if they cooperate. This is a problem for all nations of course.

But even with that, you have some more problems. One is that of voter fraud. How can you ensure that the person with token 16967049 is actually the person assigned token 16967049? This can probably be circumvented in the form of crypto keys handed out at random at proof of identity.

Then you have voter anonymity that needs to be preserved. You need to register that a voter only has one vote and has voted, without revealing which party the voter cast on the ballot.

One final major problem is that of voter coercion; it is illegal to force anyone to vote in any way at threat of violence or worse. But how are you going to control this if the voter sits at home and cast their vote?

The only system we know work somewhat well is the paper ballot, and those electronic voting machines have long since been proven as a sham that you should trust about as far as you can throw 'em. If it is electronic it can be tampered with and at dozens of different points, so electronic voting will almost always be tampered with, if not this election, then at some point in the future.

Bottom line; too many problems with electronic voting, even with blockchains.

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99% might be to high a number.
And you’re correct in that it is a human right.

" … It shouldn’t require any prior knowledge to perform the action itself … "

Filling in a circle or square in blue or black ink, pushing a button, is to much to expect from people? Because that’s about all there is to voting. And if that’s to much " prior knowledge" then God help the human race, because if it is, we’re doomed.

And you do know that even “paper” ballots are counted by machine don’t you? And as such is as open to attack(?) as any other system.

Yes.
Me.

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Ya there will always be a weak link.

The machines need to be kept as simple as possible (i.e. NOT connected to the internet) and every step of the process needs to be fully auditable. But right now AFAIK a lot of them are proprietary and shouldn’t be trusted, especially when there are known vulnerabilities that they refuse to fix.

I don’t see how paper ballots are inherently any kind of secure, though. A paper ballot system centralizes the potential for corrupt influence in vote counters miscounting votes, voting locations not sending votes, various shenanegains with voting not representing the size of a population due to legacy systems implemented to ease the burden of physical vote counting, etc etc.

I think people really overestimate the security of paper ballot voting. It has as many cheap, hacky workarounds as would be required for a much more robust blockchain voting system.

Fraud can be assumed to be the responsibility of the voter; One person, one voting key, and if they see suspicious activity, they can phone in and report it as stolen to get a new key. No different here from a credit card, bank card, or any other system of authentication. It’s a non-issue in the sense that we already have solutions to this that work well enough.

Anonymity isn’t really required at every stage, either. You can issue cryptographic keys anonymously enough that it would be very difficult to track who voted for who, and it’s not like it’s impossible to find out with paper ballots.

Coercion is also a complete non issue top to bottom, since it could only effectively work in a family setting, and could only extend so far as the present family at a given residence. This would barely outweigh noise, and simple clerical errors in the vast array of very flawed human people that comprise the current system of voting will and likely do introduce more noise than this.

The 51% problem is… Only a problem if you accept unsigned/invalid votes, and citizens have no means to validate and correct their vote during the voting period, which is easily solved simply by having a long voting window in which there is a longer period where votes are “locked” and can only be changed by someone declaring the vote under their name as fraudulent, and providing identification manually to override the digital anonymous vote.

I think people underestimate the number of problems that already exist with voter fraud and with the current flawed electoral system.(which, haha, is fundamentally flawed, as it centralizes debate into a false dichotomy of left and right)
That, or there be a lot of imperial propaganda on the internet. Which, there is, for sure, but it’s often hard to tell which is legitimate and which is just people playing along.

Decentralized blockchain-validated voting on individual issues of concern is a much more robust system than what we have. The problem is that the people in control of every aspect of information in your life don’t particularly like when people can’t be easily controlled.
As is, society functions less as a way of distributing resources and resolving conflicts for a large scale population, and more as a way of controlling a large population and their resources for the benefit of a small number of people. It’s all closer to feudalism or monarchy than democracy still.

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If you can’t trust the “system”, whatever that system may be ( and NO system is completely trust worthy ) then why bother to vote at all?

Do I trust the system in my State? It’s vote by mail. Vote by mail was first used 50 years ago. And yes, I actually do trust it.

Why? Because I have to if I want to be a part of how this Country elects, votes on things.

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Does the US have election scrutineers? The advantage of paper systems is that a bunch of people can sit around and watch the processes. The scrutineers come from at least the major parties, so to fake things you have fool a lot of people.

As others have said, US voting is a right to an extent that any type of integrity control proposed is usually knocked as a means to infringe on a groups ability to vote. It has gotten as racist as insinuating certain groups of people are not intelligent enough to use a computer, smart phone and/or get an ID.

Similar to how many ‘common sense’ and not so common sense gun laws are arguable infringements to the 2nd amendment.

We are so polarized now, people in the same breath can argue one way or the other at the same time, pro and con at the same time dependent on their tribe’s narrative. The term NPC is sometimes too close to be funny.

With all that said I think we could all agree an election should have the same level of CIA triad (the cyber triad not the agency) as we demand for our Amazon account, bank accounts, home deeds etc. But in current times of tribes flinging sh*t at each other, there would be no productive motion towards this despite no need to “prove” its possible, pretty much all of us use online banking, purchasing, taxes, medical etc.

Maybe some super amazing AI down the road? But I could see both parties push against that cause honestly I feel both don’t want it to be fair. Throughout history both have benefited from a broken system so neither are truly committed to good change- only change that helps only their side.

IMO pretty ineffective to ballot collecting/harvesting of certain regions.

Would be interesting to have voting accurate enough (tie the vote to the person) that said person could go on a website post vote, validate authentication of self, and see: a) results - but wait, they didn’t vote b) who they voted for changed c) seemed to disappear.

That would be a riot.

It would also eventually get hacked or crawled to where people could make massive lists of who voted for who and that could lead to various levels of retribution.

But holy crap the stories that would come out from a system like that…

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Hope that I’m just being paranoid and it’s actually being counted properly.

And I think that’s about as good as it’s going to get, because unless I can somehow verify that my vote was counted correctly, I won’t be fully satisfied. But at the same time, having that kind of system in place could lead to more widespread political persecution, so I wouldn’t want that to happen either.

" … Does the US have election scrutineers … "

Yes, several throughout the process. And so …

" … so to fake things you have fool a lot of people … "

That’s why. And you want to be one of those people? Apply, register with the State and be one.

In my State we vote by mail. Have for 50(?) years? So there is a “paper trail”. Audits are routinely done of the machines, hand recounts, audits are done as needed. So I have a great deal of trust of the process.

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i honestly doubt its as secure as the creators or its users claim.
case in point, when the nsa got access to rsa they chose to weaken it so that could crack it easier if they needed to.
and didnt matter it left everyone more vulnerable.

add in the fact a lot of our governments are trying to implement systems that run counter to democracy. meaning they wouldn’t want us having blockchain if it gives us greater freedom or atonomy from them. yet they do want it?.
yeah makes me think twice…

so no i wouldn’t trust them with it or anything like it.
they will find some way to monetise it or abuse it and us, as history has shown to many times previous.

A lot of people don’t and a convo I had at work (and used work as a analogy) helped with empathy towards that group.

IMO we have a voting system that if compared to any other decent system of CIA would be a laughing stock.

We as LVL1 nerds already make huge fun of industries that suffer breaches when at least those industries passed some level of inspection.

Take PCI compliance, DISA STIG compliance, HIPPA compliance etc. All things we as LVL1 nerds can poke fun at but at least those things require a configuration, compliance and validation process that makes our voting system an absolute joke in comparison.

So in summary, those who have doubts have valid doubts because so many other industries have far more stringent controls but get pwned all day everyday. Also there is lots of industry that gets attacked all day every day and have demonstrated amazing Confidentiality, Integrity and Availability so I have a lot of empathy with the “we can do better” crowd.

Anyhow, social media is awesome because a lot of clout holders history is there to be seen. When an election went their way, “the system is great!” Give it a few election cycles and the “other guys” win and then its “the system is horrible and always has been!” Moderates are over here asking in what universe is the integrity even remotely as good as systems that have become national news for getting pwned.

For the young blood out there that only think its the “right” doubting the system because of recent events, google GW Bush, Florida, 2000.

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i wouldnt put any faith in the audits of the dominion voting machines.
they are known to be insecure, despite all the washington hired security analysts claims that in 2020 the machines were secure. (when independantly checked, multiple vulnerability’s were found that would have been obvious to anyone looking properly)
and the governor of georgia is refusing to have them updated till after the 2024 election apparently.

https://www.cisa.gov/news-events/ics-advisories/icsa-22-154-01

look how many were found but as i said the governments own “independent” audit after the 2020 election found nothing amiss. :exploding_head:

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