What is after Gasoline cars?

The rich folk need to milk the petroleum industry until they work out away to make up the profit margin in electric propulsion.
The problems with energy storage seem to be with bureaucracy more than technology.

Was following graphene / carbon nanotube capacitors until research appeared to have ceased.
Capacitors at only 25% of battery capacity would make electric vehicles viable for both utilitarian and personal use. Capacitors charge nearly instantly, cycle charges without degredation, and last a very long time due to their simplicity.

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Personally, I would rather see more motorcycles on the road seeing as we have so many single occupant vehicles. However, I see more of a coexistence model as opposed to a total phase out. Too many pieces of equipment rely on Ultra high-torque to swap them over to electric Not to say it cant be done, but there are too many brands that won’t want to go through the “Awkward” phase tech goes through. Brands like Caterpillar won’t risk public opinion of their products diminishing due to outsourced tech failing in order to go through the growing period tech needs to perfect itself.

However, this thread IS about Cars; not heavy equipment; and by extension, more about transport than construction.
I do personally feel that more options is a good thing, however, we shall see. The problem lies when government attempts to curb the market for gas powered vehicles via various taxes.

With an electrically driven market, however, the price of oil will still be a problem, if not oil, then coal. there are only so many ways to charge a battery. A longer term solution would have to be found and we all know that long lasting fuel sources carry more risk. I am not arguing the merits of any one fuel source, but I am saying they all carry problems that make each of them imperfect and all require us to bite a pretty tough to swallow bullet.

I skimmed this thread so may have missed some thing, but seems a lot of current lithium technology being discussed.

There are many problems with the current (no pun intended) tech.

Good points electric motors are relatively simple mechanically so should be reliable and easy to manufacture.

Replacing the power store quickly and conveniently. A tank of fuel easy.

I’ve read recently that researchers a I think was Cambridge university have developed a battery for want of a better word that can be recharged by replacing it liquid component to recharge it. pump out the electrolyte if thats what it is and replace with fresh. This system can use most of the existing infrastructure of distribution tanks and the old “electrolyte” sent for reprossessing. The “electrolyte” stores its energy in a methanol type of chemistry I think.

My point being that this is just the start and things can be very different than the status quo we have now.

My fear is that it will be manipulated for financial gain of a small number of crooked institutions and that standards and regulation will favor large corporations and kill off some really good technology as has happened in the past.

One problem is stored energy in small volumes it can be very dangerous.

We seem so risk averse that I wonder how we do anything now, but thats a different topic…

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Electric, assuming the world economy doesn’t collapse us into anarchy because of automation putting a large portion of the workforce out of work in the next 10-20 years.

And then we’ll take to the wasteland in our cut-up-tire/bdsm outfits and fight each other for gasoline, and maybe one day electric will come back once a large group takes control and tries to rebuild society.

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Electric produces some crazy torqe

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What do you mean by that? dont under estimate the torque of an elerctic engine.

I don’t think that they care about the public opinion as much they do the actual performance of their equipment, and their business relation ships. I don’t forsee construction equipment going electric for a long time, Gasoline will dominate that area for a while.

I agree coal will be an issue along with natural gas and everything else that goes into the grid to ultimetly help charge electric vehicles, There have been studies and over it is more green (more/less depending on where you live) but it doesnt completely stop the issue. We will have to keep an eye on solar and wind these coming year and see where they go…

Sounds cool, do you have a link? I’d like to read more on this.

you and me both pal. +1

Well, It doesnt have to be perfect, although that would be cool. It just has to be safer than current technologies… Tesla’s already are, due to their unique frame/design and autopilot functionality.

That my friend, is going to happen eventually anyways, CGPGrey did a good video on this…

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I agree with the ideology, wheel torque isn’t a issue in an EV.

However the nit pick in me wants to say the torque isn’t actually that crazy at the motor, sports car engines can reach the same sorts of peaks as we see in EV’s currently on the market. Whats crazy is that torque stays the same between like 100 and 16,000 rpm, and there is very little efficiency loss reving high as its not pumping any air or fluid directly (so only bearing losses), nor serious increases in maintenance\running costs for such rotation. This allows you to gear a car so normal highway speed is a large portion of redline (in the tesla, 8k rpm, half the redline, at 77mph), hence gearing also it to provide more torque at the wheels than an IC engine… its just not possible to drive a factory Corvette Z01 at 8,000rpm (fuel cut is 6,700rpm), let alone for your entire highway commute, the motor would literally fly break before you got anywhere.

For applications where tire grip is a less binding constraint vs motor power its possible to even consider using swappable gears for an electric motor (as seen by some teams in formula E), assuming the rest of the setup was the same as a Tesla, then having a 4x reduction gear you can select would let you reach 38 miles an hour much more quickly. The tesla doesn’t do this as its limited by its weight and tires, while existing diesel electric units (like mine trucks or trains) don’t do this is they are limited to the wattage output of the diesel motor, so they simply over specify the electric motor size so it can deliver more than the full power of the IC motor across a wider rev range.

I don’t personally think EV longhaul trucks are the future like they are for cars, as a single trip can travel thousands of miles (locally to me here in Australia, Adelaide to Darwin is a commonly run route, its 1,870miles each way done over 2 days), having batteries for this sort of distance is not feasible, especially with the weight and wind resistance of the load instead of a aerodynamic sedan. Even with truck sized superchargers, it’d still be a great many stops, and need a power backbone to those stops capable of dumping hundreds of kilowatts. Therein rail to me is the only sound long distance electric carrier, as electric trains can opt out of batteries completely. However if we do start to see heavy EV’s (and they have some application, like first or final leg inner city transport, though I do still see daily range a limit) I would not be surprised if they have a starting and run gear.

Then again maybe Trikstari said it right, , its more likely people here will dress up in chains and leather and fight till the world burns than actually admit that the roots blower sticking out of the bonnet of their full sized sedan doesn’t represent efficient trans portion for one man and a dog across the great open roads of silverton.

I don’t feel motorbikes can replace cars.
Sure for a young and able bodied person going to work in areas where its not snowing its a valid possibility, but even then while the roads are covered in cars its more dangerous per vehicle mile than an EV, and since the world will always need to transport people who are disabled, young, elderly, plus their pets and larger luggage items than fit on a bike, I don’t see a way to remove them. On the other hand having cycle ways that are covered for light weather events, and separated from footpaths or roads would allow a great many inner city car commuter trips to be offset by something like Ebikes, leaving a great deal more road capacity for fullsize family EV’s, busses and goods trucks.

Here’s the Tesla P100D on a Dyno

And here’s a good video explaining the logic behind only having one gear on an electric car.

(Not making a counter point by linking these, only providing information to other people reading this thread)


We’ll have to see what happens… TESLA of all companies is unveiling their Electric Semi this september. Rumors say it will attack the short range 200-300mi market. But other theories show it might have viability in the cost/mile part of it. Here’s a good read: https://evannex.com/blogs/news/here-s-the-real-plan-for-the-tesla-semi

I don’t think Tesla will go for the “Semi-Sized-Supercharger” That wouldn’t make much sense IMHO, they’d probably use existing super charger Tech and charger the larger battery over a long time, (eg this is now overnight) OR they unveil their gen 3 super chager that can employ active cooling (effecively semi-sized-supercharger) OR they will reintroduce the battery swap for trucks only.

Australia is a tad different, your infrastructure is… Minimal in places. However, the hundred kW chargers already exist for Tesla’s. (480v, 110 A). They just need more of them, and probably a redesign for trucks. However, if you can design the range around DOT maximum, the solution is pretty easy, with longer charge times available. Just need infrastructure

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I subscribe to Engineering Explained, good channel, good video.

On the other hand I don’t really agree with the evannex link… they use LOTS of numbers based of cars, not trucks. For example the powertrain life, they specify the cost ($75k) and cost per mile ($0.20), from that we can figure out how long they expect a trucks motor and gearbox to last (not just till rebuilt, till replacement) and come up with… only 375k miles. Thats a lot for a car, but to make this clear, some trucks have warranties that long and most will do twice that before overhaul, with multiple overhauls not being rare. The average trucker in the USA drives 2,000-3,000 miles per week, so their estimated life would see the average truck being replaced every 2-3 years, which doesn’t line up with stats, the mean age of the “active” tractor fleet is 5.9 years.

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The issue is power density still, 243 watt hours per kilo is all the current battery tech in teslas is good for. Diesil is 35.86 MJ/L, or about 12583 watt hours per kilo. Newer trucks get efficiencies that peak at 45%, but even assuming that 40% was more realisitic to account for some motor wear and gear changes thats still 5033 watt hours per kilo, or 20.71 times the energy per mass.

Since there are sleepers and day cabs sold, we can rule out most long haul trucks by considering day cabs only, which gives an average tank size range of 90-150 gallons (340-567L) with diesels density of 0.84 kg\L. So we are talking 286-477 kg of fuel in the shorter range fleet, or a 6,000 to 10,000 kg battery you’d need to swap every time you fill in the short range fleet… sleepers are normally in the 300gallon range, so 20,000kg of battery. Current average day cab tractors weigh ~16,000lbs (7,258kg), and the typical tractor motor is only on the order of 1,000kg (325-425hp 11L). This gives a weight loss of 1,286kg for taking the motor and fuel off, thus a average daycab weight of 5,972kg… we can add the battery weight for the same energy (6,000kg) to get an “EV Daycab” weight of a min of 11,972kg (26,394lbs), to 15,781kg (34,791lbs). This doesn’t sound silly, by its a weight increase of 65% to 117%, resulting in a payload loss of 4,714kg (29%) to 8,523kg (54%) under current US semi trailer max weight, even ignoring the per axle loading rules that likely make such trucks much more difficult to implement.

Since the average US semi truck gets 6.5 miles to the gallon, the smaller fuel capaity numbers give a max theoretical range of ~585 miles to run a truck dry, therein the proposed Tesla semi’s 300 mile range is likely the required ballpark, since I think truck battery swap points are fair more expensive and niche than fuel stations, and the stop and swap still takes time and labor, I don’t see a reduction in range below that as very sustainable for the first few generations of the technology. I also don’t see that with constantly improving safety and comfort standards, lower road wear setups ect that you could build a truck to contain these batteries that’d be much lighter than the daycab average sans fuel and motor. Thus a min loss of payload I see as ~15%.

As for cost, Tesla claims to be able to make batteries “below $190/kWh” currently, and GM claim it could reach $145/kWh. So based on the GM number the 6ton pack is worth $211,410 or $108,415 to match tesla’s 300 miles. This sounds like a cheap cost, but the hazard is it only does 1,200 cycles before range rapidly starts to tail off (0-1200 is 95% cacapity, then it drops to dead packs pretty fast, on teslas model S thats about 300,000 miles), this is heaps for a car, but on the truck Tesla claimed range of pack only 360,000 miles, or 120 weeks (2.4 work years). In other words the lease would be $45,173 usd per year for tesla to pay off battery wear at the price it leaves the factory, without accounting for the casing and electronics inside, let alone swap station costs, or the costs of an actual distribution network for >3ton packs of lithium ion with the transport and admin that entails… the $25k a year with a profit evannex list simply cannot work even if cell endurance doubles… and possibly not if it quadrupled.

And since its not one of my posts without a because 'Stralia comment, we have a max three axle weight of 23 ton vs the USA 24.5 ton, but here the max combination is 172 ton, vs the USA 36.3 ton… did somebody say electric road train?

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Not the article I was thinking of, could not find it with search, sure i read it only a few days ago on google news uk.

this is similar It could be the same thing I read about if its more than a day or two ago I’m hopeless.

Companies that lease will run it for 5 years and turn them in where they are re-sold. Companies also found that by turning down the hp output some they can extend the life even more.
Companies that buy them outright can get 2 million miles out of a chassis.
Trucks break down, usually in an inconvenient place. The existing network of repair companies can fix most problems.

Tesla’s are like Gucci and Pravda, trendy and cool. Joe sixpack wants nothing to do with them, let Tesla market and sell a successful pick-up truck that outsells the F-150 without government assistance. Or a ride on-electric lawnmower that someone actually wants. Then maybe people will give up a throaty growl for something that hums like the A/C in the window.
Frankly I could see Natural Gas and maybe Hydrogen making a far greater impact.

Tesla has roadside assistance, bu you probably are going to just tow the truck to a service center anyhow, and Tesla can pretty easily colocate with truck stops, or the truck stops can be trained and tooled for tesla

Pretty sure Tesla doesn’t have road side assistance. They do have a small fleet of runners to go to your house to repair your car if it brake down and the service center is far away. Either way I’m sure the logistics of repair will be much different for Tesla’s and for fleet vehicles

Some cities are converting their taxis to lpg. It seems like the best option in my opinion, oil companies would do anything to stop the competition.

Who do you think produces the lpg