Water cooling for lower noise? Or better fans?

HWCooling as mentioned along with QuasarZone for on application results, HWBusters/Cybenetics for P-Q curves and independent testing of specs AMCA 210. Figure like 10% uncertainty in the rankings for part to part variation and implementation details. HWBusters has additional error as load noise and P-Q curve convexity are neglected—there’s occasional discrepancies up to ~20% in their data, too, but it’s mostly ok. Gamers Nexus’ choice to review the Peerless Assassin is after Thermalright succeeded it with the Phantom Spirit is an odd one and they still haven’t released anything from the Longwin fan tester they bought.

I have an eco mode 7950X under the latter and thermal throttling’s negligible with TL-C12s at ~850 RPM max. If you’re needing to push the Peerless Assassin above that with a 7900 something’s wrong with the mount or case airflow, there’s a typo and it’s actually an unrestricted 7900X or PPT lifted, ambient temperatures are elevated, or something else is off.

I generally see diminishing returns beyond ~30 m/h³ but, yeah, if thermals aren’t good intake flow’s the first thing I check. Exhaust fans have lowered temperatures 5–10 °C on occasion and, while I haven’t found a lot of RPM sensitivity, in front to back air cooled builds I typically spin the exhausts up somewhat to compensate for hex mesh generally being fairly high flow resistance.

My experience is TL-C12 impellers pretty much tie NF-A12x25s in actual use and, unlike the Noctuas, I’ve never had them whine. Thermalright got bought out a while ago and the new owners seem to have switched to bearings that click and don’t last very long, though. Arctic P12s work well as low cost replacements but likely hum audibly above ~1200 RPM.

Source? The on application measurements mentioned above show little to no difference between the two sizes’ noise-normalized airflows at the population level, so it’s really down to parts selection. For fans that usually get shortlisted to buy it’s around a ±25% range depending what you’re comparing in which direction. QuasarZone’s data also shows a consistent pattern of 140 air coolers underperforming 120s on a noise-normalized basis, which is consistent with my experience.

Spring loaded screws are standard for cooler mounts and the implementation you describe is standard for dual tower air coolers. Noctua’s mounting hardware on their desktop parts that I’ve installed has been poor—lots of sticking and binding where screws on coolers costing a third as much turn smoothly.

Lian Li P28s are pretty much performance interchangeable with T30s and should drop in fine, then, though stretching the clips or minor mods to the fans would be needed.

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It’s a 7900X.

Lian Li P28s seem to get very mixed reviews. Some reviewers say they are great, others find they are poor performers at low RPMs.

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I was making a little bit of a logic leap there, equating LCP blades with being a superior fan. TT’s 140mm fan has LCP blades and Noctua’s 140mm is still using old school amorphous plastic… in reality LCP probably doesn’t automatically mean a better fan, but its at least an indicator.

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It’s a dual chiplet 7000 series CPU, it’s gonna be hot unless you do some mods like deliding or sanding down the ihs

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I found a channel called “eiglow_” on YouTube where they have recordings of different fans. I had heard that the P30 sound is quite bad at higher speeds, and that confirmed it. You get that buzzing noise that I am trying to get rid of.

Noctua NF-A12x25 have a much lower, broader spectrum sound. be quiet! Silent Wings Pro 4 seem quite nice too, but perform basically the same as the A12 and cost a little more.

These are what came with the PA I believe, and you can hear the angry bees at higher speeds:

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I am currently a huge “fan” lol of be quiet lately with there offerings especially there cpu coolers. Great numbers and great cooling. Just throwing my two cents in the ring

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Watercooling is in pretty same boat as aircooling - noisyness can wildly differ by overall design, placement decisions and OEM.

If you have very large case, custom waterloop can be made very quiet with large radiator.

But if you want cool your cpu only, same job can be achieved by noctua NH-D15 monster cooler too.

Thermal mass is thermal mass, in the end it doesn’t matter where it is and how distributed it is, as long the heat flows in and out. Era of AIO cooling cpu to 50°C under load is over due to massively increased thermal density.

So if you invest in large massive heatsink, you can cool it down with nice low rpm airflow.

Some notes on custom loop watercooling:

  • “+” modularity means reusability, most loop parts will last you multiple platform lifetimes
    • intefaces are generic, like 1/4 screwhole
  • “+” generally reliable and repairable, unless you cheap out too much. Even then its just single part replacement.
    • some vendors even sell spare parts for pumps and keep stock for long time, like Alphacool
  • “+” leaks generally not an issue (unless you fuck up or cheap out)
  • “+” possibility of reusable modular external cooling tower for even better cooling and low noise (like alphacool eiswand 360 or DIY)
  • “-” initial setup is confusing for novices (tubes, diameters, diffrerent fittings …)
    • but fun in the end :slight_smile:
  • “-” not that many independent reviews since AIO coolers came to market
  • “-” EKWB, bleh (premium price, low to mid quality)
  • “?” needs large case for comfy installation and excellent performance. Normal ATX can be bit cramped.
  • “-” while sensors are available, control units are low level devices and very hit or miss in user experience (aquacomputer controller in example) . AIOs have the software part much better thought out and implemented.

Explanation why EKWB bleh - after upgrading gpu (finally) I disassembled my custom loop and found unpleasant suprises:

  • ekwb PVC clear tubing begun chemically degrading ( not an issue in itself, but it shouldn’t happen and who knows what plasticizer leaching out can do to radiator and pump).


    DuraClear my ass. Algae does not grow in dark after all.
    => solution is silicon tubing
  • byksi 2070s waterblock shows signs of fouling and peeling nickel coating (this cheap block was only choice for gpu my model). No fuctional impact but concerning developement.

Everything else is in reasonable condition after 5+ years of runtime, across multiple builds.

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Sources? Haven’t seen this come up in any of the reviews I’ve gone through, either the few with reasonably robust methodology or the usual halo of results that might or might not be meaningful.

FWIW, I’ve measured P28s operating in the 328–1200 RPM range in various air cooling configurations and, while not tooled for airflow, the noise-normalized thermals are consistent with QuasarZone’s data. All of the P28s I’ve gotten (different orders over several months) have somewhat clicky bearings and some associated elevation in vibration. But it’s not anything which Quasar’s semi-anechoic seems to pick up on and it’s under my measurement floor of ~18 dB(A). Maybe HWBusters/Cybenetics will be able to find something with their 6 dB(A) floor if they test.

Based on similar behavior with other bearings in other fans some longevity issues wouldn’t surprise me. Remains to be seen, though, and may not be worse than any of the other tradeoffs.

Looks like you meant T30 here. Pretty much every fan’s problematic some of the time in some use cases and, in general, higher flow rates are more problematic.

It’s unclear what you’re comparing the NF-A12x25s to but most likely this isn’t especially well supported by measurement. Be careful of linking subjective impressions with actual spectra, cautious of the recording and playback chain, and mindful of using off application, spectrogram-free videos like this series as estimators of on application performance.

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Noise normalized tests. Of course, noise normalized doesn’t account for the tone of the noise, only the overall pressure level.

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Oh, this one. It’s the only test I know of in pull operation. Haven’t encountered any similar reports, so don’t think this really says anything about P28 low speed behavior. It does suggest against using P28s to pull on a GTS 240 in an A4-H2O, but that’s not the application of interest here. As another example, Hardware Canucks problematic P28 tonality at ~1800 RPM with the rad and case they tested with. Nobody else has replicated that either.

I’ve encountered similar on application complaints with the T30 and NF-A12x25. Not so much Silent Wings 4, but their adoption seems to be lower.

Can’t comment on the Peerless Assassin but spectrograms of P28s on the Phantom Spirit are fine all the way up to 2600. ~860 RPM where Machines & More had problems is below my noise floor and at ~1800 a lot of the noise is just having that much flow volume through the fin stack.

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I’ve got both fans and the T30 is subjectively quieter/more pleasant than the A12x25 to my ears at similar RPM, but the T30 pushes more air at the same RPM.
The T30 definitely gets louder than the Noctua when both are running at max RPM, but that’s the difference between 3000 and 2000 RPM. Overall the T30 is a deeper tone than the A12x25’s more high pitched whininess.

Another thing to consider is that fan noise can depend on if it is fed 12vdc and controlled by a PWM signal or is fed variable DC power.
I know for a fact that many (especially Silverstone’s 180mm fans) create much more buzzy motor noise when running off of PWM compared to a DC voltage setting the speed.

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It should be noted that almost all noise is subjective and what is tolerable or not greatly varies from person-to-person.

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Very much so. Even the “objective” tests done are hard to translate to what will sound best in the real world because of person-to-person hearing differences (at least when deciding between fans that are somewhat close in performance). A-B testing is probably the best method but is difficult; makes me miss the show rooms that physical computer stores use to have.

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not only is there person-to-person differences, but also manufacturing tolerance caused differences. also, fans in open air sound different if press to the mesh of a case or the fins of an aircooler or the fins of a radiator. and can be different between various obsticals. ie it might sound different pressed against a dh15 than an darkrock 4(examples)

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Are you sure it’s the fans? There may be just one fan, there may be a GPU fan problem… Try stopping the fans one by one with your hand to see if there is one that makes the noise. Could easily be just one fan replacement instead of the entire cooling system.

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Fan upgrade honestly sounds like the better idea. Arctic P12s are at least reasonably priced, and due to being relatively low-RPM they’re seriously quiet. At full load, basically anything above silent is louder than my tower cooler.

I’ve run a 280mm AIO, and while it was /somewhat/ better for cooling, it wasn’t enough of an improvement to make the pump noise entirely worth it. It wasn’t /loud/, but it was omnipresent and “whiny” compared to just fans.

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I can only comment based on those YouTube videos. They aren’t perfect as he has the fans in open air, but they do at least tell you which ones will buzz with higher RPMs and PWM control.

For a good fan, if PWM is the issue then they should be able to fix that with the electronics.

I don’t even have a dedicated GPU at this point. I am thinking of getting a Radeon when I see a bargain for one. Was considering an Intel ARC, but they are supporting Israel so are on the boycott list now. The APU in the 7900X is fine for most of what I do - CAD and video encoding. It’s just that it struggles a bit sometimes due to only having 512MB of dedicated VRAM.

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This, especially. While behavior’s broadly consistent across using different fans in a given installation—they’re all bladed things that spin to move air, after all—there’s potentially quite a bit of design to design and unit to unit variability in system effects and load noise.

I’d be cautious in regards to this claim. While there aren’t unambiguous measurements published on exactly this point, the ones available indicate for the opposite.

There’s almost no measurements at all but circumstantial evidence suggests the width of a fan’s airflow exit cone is influential. The NF-A12x25’s known for a wide code and my experience with it underperforming in actual installations by maybe 5–10% relative to test fixture results is consistent with the relatively greater width being unhelpful.

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I think this is pretty definative (from HWcooling):


The site even tests noise normalized performance through various different obstacles like different meshs, grills and radiator thicknesses.

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I’ve been aware of HWCooling for years, yes, and sometimes read in Slovak as well as English. Lubo publishes a single set of RPMs (my guess is they’re unrestricted RPMs) and it appears you’ve assumed these RPMs are invariant across obstacles. They’re not invariant, however, due to load noise and flow resistance (see QuasarZone and HWBusters data, for example).

While there’s not enough data to make a robust estimate, the confidence interval width associated with these system effects appears to be something like half of HWCooling’s 3 dB(A) steps. The NF-A12x25’s widely characterized and PH-F120T30 data’s reasonably well available, so in this case other measurement sources can be incorporated. These don’t all agree either but, in my experience, fitting a more complete behavioral model flips the central estimate of the sign in this particular case.

This is why I mentioned measurements being ambiguous. If we had more data it’d be possible to form empirical probability distributions and estimate the likelihood of one fan outperforming another on some metric of interest. But we don’t.

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