Have video out on my X470?
Either way, it makes more sense than claiming Zen2 needs massive amounts of power when the highest spec is 105w, and the 2700 equivalent (that is faster) is 65w… and it has been demonstrated as far more efficient than 9900k…
Just because a board has a 10+ phase power delivery doesn’t mean it is REQUIRED. Maybe its just marketing masturbation.
Of course wenn the new Ryzen2 cpu’s hit the market,
You will still likely be fine running a Ryzen 5 and some R7 cpu’s on a decent B450 board.
But the 12 core nope. 
I’m pretty curious about what the actual potential of that particular cpu would be,
in terms of clock speeds.
Because if the 15% ish ipc improvement turn out to be true.
Then that particular cpu might be the new sweet spot for gamers.
I’m considering dropping down to an r5 1600 as they’re 57% the price of 2nd gen right now at micro center - $80 vs $140 - and they come with a considerably better stock cooler. On benchmarks/“paper” I’m only seeing 9% gain in performance in 2nd gen. Buying a desktop cpu with a lower single thread rating than my 3rd gen I7 mobile is actually blood curdling - albeit .005%, and probably negated by software optimization for newer architecture; light OC; etc. It would hurt my feelings a little, but not my pocket, and it’s the obvious better “deal” in term of price/performance, with the budget shopper in mind. Anyone want to tell me why I shouldn’t do that? 
I appreciate the comments/education on motherboards from everyone; I had fun researching it last night and learning some new things. I’m not going to respond individually since there’s a lot - but generally speaking: I also think that mid to upper range B450 should probably be fine for zen 2 in the low to mid range; I see there are advantages to the [mostly mid to higher end] X470 chipset(s) for those seeking top reliability and performance ; the MSI boards (tomahawk/carbon) do seem to be fairly well respected in terms of vrm implementation - for what they are, considering cost. Ultimately - while tempted to due my tendency to tinker - I don’t think it makes sense to devote more than 1/5th the budget of a [possibly sub] $500 build towards a motherboard, and 1/2 would be getting silly; the scope of the build and expectations don’t warrant the upgrade.
Anyone have experience buying open box motherboards from micro center? I probably won’t, but they do have a tomahawk currently in stock, and if they gave me the 30/off on top of open box I’d walk out with it for around $60.
Many years ago when I would browse openbox stuff, another customer once warned me to avoid openbox “mid/high-end boards” as there is a good chance whoever returned the board may have had issues with OCing–there is always a possibility of VRM stability was the return reason. While AMD boards avoid bent socket pins like Intel mobos, not all stores check for missing accessories such as the I/O shield or board specific parts such as custom NVMe heatsink(buying a replacement part from the maker can ruin your savings)
I’m quite sure most consumers who bought B450 boards are either using them in non-OC mode(poor-mans workstation paired with a Ryzen 5 or Ryzen 7 65W) or were sticking with a balance of features. Gaming versions of B450 boards tend of have a your mileage will vary for OCing. When it comes to gaming/content creating if someone were to SLI/Crossfire & use higher watt “X” variants of Ryzen CPUs for OCing, X-series makes more sense.
From my own point of view I’m waiting for the new motherboards, it might be interesting what kind of options(ITX, mATX and ATX) roll out… a 12 core Ryzen with an ITX motherboard would be quite spiffy, running one off solar panels would be a fun challenge 
I would have to disagree with the MB assessments. It depends on the core count of your upgrade path.
The 65W and 105W are misleading, as they are set more in accordance with the BASE clock speed, not the BOOST clock speed.
Because of this, some have mentioned in rumors of the 16-core pulling in the 200W range, up to 300W. Now, some B450 boards can handle that, as they have similar VRM setups to what is found on my X399 taichi. Some, however, do not.
So, the real question is what drop in chip do you plan to upgrade to in about 2-3 years. The last CPUs on this socket should be released next year. If you buy a year or two after that, it is a great way to renew your rig, especially if you buy a gen 1 Ryzen.
As to core count, it depends on what your use case is. A 2600 or 2600X is great for gaming. A 1700X is more for if you need more cores and threads (or the cheaper 1700, depending on what you can find where).
Because of this, I would take even the 1600 if it means you can spend more on your MB now! The reason is, when I was recommending on B450s a year ago, I often told people if they planned on overclocking their 8-core chips hard, buying around the $175-180 range was really what they would need without stepping up to the X470 lineup (which many B450 boards at that price hit harder than their X470 counterparts in that price range). The reason was VRM.
Now, people here are pointing to the 65W TDP of the 3700X. It sounds good, but that is the rating at like 3.6GHz. Once you increase the base to 3.9GHz like on the 3800X, then the TDP is at 105W. So, if doing a heavy all core overclock, like to 4.2+, you could be pulling 160W+ on the CPU.
We won’t know for sure until chips are in hand, of course. But I would recommend stepping up beyond the tomahawk, personally, if the goal is to future proof to do a drop in CPU upgrade in 2+ years. I know that may blow your budget, but something worth considering.
Edit: try this build, just reduce the CPU cost down to $80
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/cjFc9J
That would give you a great B450 board as an upgrade path while also keeping within your budget if you can pick up the CPU for $80 (granted, coming in right around your $500 budget).
Thanks - exactly the type of thing that worries me. I was thinking of other potential instability(s) due to micro-fractures/defects - anything even a thorough diag might miss/not be able to replicate; unstable vrm is a good point. Likely won’t go that route (though I’ve been known to be moody).
Yes, I meant “low to mid-range”, with respect to core count for sure. I’m totally just guessing they’ll be sub-8 core or lower power 8 core options; that at least a few will be reasonably supported by B450.
Definitely going to weigh current needs more heavily - 6/12 is plenty for my glorified media center/light gaming-light workstation combo; I think. I hate the idea of shooting myself in the foot in terms of potential upgrade, but don’t really believe in “future-proofing” either. As far as upgrading the motherboard now - only MUCH higher priced boards have been recommended so far…
I can’t seem to see your build (perhaps with mine in the cache - could clear out and try), is there another way you can link?
Anyhow, I think that’s all good advice - whether it necessarily applies to my exact needs, or not - thanks!
I really don’t think prices are going to drop much more than this.
I mean, that’s an amazing deal for a 1080p gaming machine, good to go out of the box. Probably going to want to add a SSD, but they’re cheap as balls these days too.
Basically, was saying look at the MSI B450 Gaming Pro Carbon.
Here is a video on B450 board VRM analysis:
I’d recommend watching some of his videos on VRM analysis for the B450 boards and X470 boards before you make your final selection.
The B450 Gaming Pro Carbon on PC Part Picker is now around $130.
Edit: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1422988-REG/msi_b450_gaming_pro_carbon.html
Oh man, yeah. I actually like Dell too; at least over other manufacturers. Spec for spec (though uncertain about motherboard or RAM) I’ll only make out slightly better. But I didn’t decide to build to save money anyway - it’s for the fun/learning experience - trying to get the best deal is only part of it. The “budget” part isn’t really based on what I can afford… more along the lines of what I want to afford - for enjoyment; with regards to my requirements without overspending (much); etc.
I did! I might spring for it depending on my mood :D. In terms of vrm management everything i’ve seen so far has suggested it’s basically the same as the tomahawk - but there are other cool features/+s. I’ll check out the vid, thnx.
AMD’s TDP rating is cooling related (and essentially power turns into heat), intel play games with “base clock” power requirement ratings.
We are all still hanging once again on rumors till June 10. Then hopefully some tech specs on how and what these chips are will come out.
I said in the other thread but again a TR 2950X is 180W. So the Zen2 part will be less power (7nm) for 16 cores.
Will there be out of the box higher clocks or manual OC’s. We only have a baby history where the 1700 was an OC beast and the 2700X was come out of the gate at very close to the limit.
Also with the higher IPC. @wendell mentioned it way back when. Xeons with larger caches get effective performance improvements that could relate to clock speed boosts. That not something that will work with every application however.
Waiting again. Im really looking forward to a deep dive into the chiplet setup with an IO die.
If people are hanging on to the idea of buying a Ryzen and overclocking the snot out of it beyond what the X series already do i think they will be disappointed to be honest.
AMD are pushing pretty close to the edge with the stuff they are putting out. XFR on Ryzen 2xxx does a better job in some instances than manual oc - just feed it enough power and cooling.
I don’t think Ryzen 3000 will be different in that respect.
But still. The core counts at this price with 5-10% higher clocks and 15% IPC uplift = worth it.
Yeah the Ryzen 5 and the Ryzen 7 65W TDP part will likely be okay,
on some decent B450 boards.
Wenn it comes to overclocking it will be hard to say,
since that will be a matter of luck.
But like i mentioned above most B- series boards are pretty crap when it comes to,
their vrm implementations.
So yeah i would personally highly recommend for those who want to upgrade,
from like a 2600X to a R7 or R9 save a few bucks more and grab a decent X570 board also.
The R7 3700X 65W TDP part will likely run well at stock on most B450 boards.
But as soon as you start overclocking them, the TPD of course goes out the window.
Waiting for Zen 2 to drop
out of Linus’ hands.
We have hit the freq wall and it is 5 GHZ with our current methods of CPU growing. It will take something radically different to break through and explode past it.
I’m not saying it is the same game Intel is playing, where the TDP serves ZERO purpose to guide a consumer on what to purchase.
But, where the TDP is measured for cooling matters as well. AMD does a better job than Intel in regards to TDP, but that doesn’t mean that those chips won’t be able to push clear past the TDP. If you look, 100MHz boost clock difference between the 65W 3700X and the 105W of the 3800X does not account for the 40W delta in cooling, whereas the base clock increase from 3.6GHz to 3.9GHz does account for the delta. As such, if you plan on overclocking, you need to prepare properly for it. If running at stock, then it just means making sure you have a sturdy VRM.
See my point now?
Not necessarily. You have the isopower/isoperformance curve. What that means is you can either reduce the power consumption by half, in this case, with the same performance of the prior generation, or you can maintain the same power requirements while increasing performance.
Because of this, assuming those parts will use less power is potentially fool-hardy. On mainstream, they needed to use less power to lower TDPs to bring performance and more cores to that platform. On servers, they really took the power savings to double core counts in the same power envelope. But for workstations, that is where, depending on if you are buying an “X” or a “WX” variant, I would expect less power reduction and more increase in performance.
There is a good point on the effects of cache on IPC.
But, as to the I/O chip, you may have to wait for Hot Chips in August to get more information (there is an interconnect conference a couple days before that, IIRC, which would also be worth watching).
will zen 2 (12 core 3900x) suffer what threadripper endured ?
latency wise, since it have 2 dies, or chiplets i don’t know which is the correct term …
Maybe probably sorta I dunno we’ll see?
Really good question and the rumor is no.
Where stuck waiting till June 10 now and even then I dont know if any tech specs will come out 