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Thread Ripper is NOT Flexible (Thank you, Microsoft)


#41

I’m aware of the Thunderbolt hack, Zibob. I was just saying this is something I’d really like to see done with TR: Legitimate, certified Thunderbolt. I’m not blaming TR or AMD for this. It’s not their issue. This is Intel’s fault (and they did say at some point they would share.) Again, it is only something I would really like to see and I’m sure others would too. scroll up… way up… and you will see that I already addressed this. I’m not comfortable with the ummm “modification”.

I do appreciate the help when I can get it though. Twenty years ago I was completely PC illiterate. Now I build PCs. I’m too old to be a skript kiddie but I certainly appreciate the help. I’ve been looking into Red Hat. Perhaps the answer lies somewhere with them. I never had the idea that one day I would be in charge of a forum with thousands of users and down time is a pain in the you-know-what.


#42

Thunderbolt and RAID used to be quite bug ridden I can name some platforms namely *270 comes to mind… The problem with thunderbolt is that unfortunately Intel does own the IP and licensing to it so while the x399 chipset can handle it and I think a few have shown that Windows 10 and 10 only handles it pretty well (No previous versions of windows). Pretty sure linux is okay too… AGESA updates and the latest linux kernels fix almost all the issues. I guess if you ran an older kernel or older EFI with the previous AGESA version you would run into siginificant issues because there were! It wasnt great… Every release has its issues… I could not speak for PCIE connectivity. I mainly use GPUs and 10gbE cards from intel. In fact I will be honest TR runs better on linux… quite a bit better then Windows. Theres a bit of an issue with regressions and @wendell actually points this out in a post and video on the forum… I suggest you look into it @CHESSTUR. Sometimes updates in windows can screw up gaming related tweaks and overclocks … this happened on the 5820K CPU due to the intel meltdown and spectre issues that were being fixed and worked around by MS. At least linux handles it mostly in the kernel and a simple kernel update helps. Windows requires a slew of drivers i.e chipset drivers that must remain up to date or issues occur. So tbch Threadripper is quite flexible and its a good platform. It was rough on the release but that can be said for anything really.

Edit: Realized everyone gave you this spiel sorry for compounding … I should read all the posts before posting next time LOL


#43

Normally I’d agree, however many people in thread (either this one, or his other one) have corrected his statements and yet he still persists.

Either he’s not reading the replies, ignoring the replies, or has an agenda and is continuing to spout BS despite being corrected many times in thread and the information being readily available to a simple google search (to confirm, if he wants to cross-check that people here aren’t talking BS).

Not knowing is one thing, continuing to spout BS when you’ve been informed of reality (many times, by several different people, and a brief web search will easily confirm) is entirely another. Hence my use of the term “wilfully ignorant”. i.e., wanting to continue to be misinformed despite many corrections in thread.

There’s nothing wrong with being ignorant of the facts, as you say, not everyone has a background or understanding of how everything works. I am ignorant on many aspects of tech myself. But continuing that after being informed in a thread where you asked for more information is just… well there’s a term for it.


#44

Well I can say that my 2950x Workstation just flies using a host OS of Windows 10 Pro.

I also run some client VM’s too, both a Windows and Linux for production, testing and work.

They run great, I just allocated 8 cores/threads and 16GB of RAM to each.


#45

Thank you, Heimallr, for giving me a fair shake on this. As I have stated numerous times, I am not an I.T. I am a PC enthusiast, PC builder, Moderator, Social Networking Agent, Blogger, Consultant (but not an I.T. Consultant) and I run a service that is actually being used by thousands of people in my community. It took off and rather surprised me. So here I am and I feel obligated to be of service. I barely even have time for blogging and web design anymore.

I don’t have time for code (although my 11 year old daughter wants to teach me Python – bless her heart). I don’t even have time for video rendering anymore (although I surely would like to get back into it.) My community depends on me but I miss the good old days. I live in a small oil town situated in Canada’s Northern Gateway and we don’t even have a news paper. Instead, I became the town’s Newspaper by default. I had no idea it would snowball the way it did. I believe last year, in November, I became a victim of Spectre/Meltdown. How Wendell figured out I was using a 6850K is anyone’s guess. The man has astounding intuition.

I did manage to get a “better” CPU but since it is an Intel chip I’m not sure I want to break the seal and open the box. Thanks to my family/home server/network I’ve been hobbling along here and keeping the Community Group thing running on an Intel G3258 which is actually the property of my 7 year old daughter. (She loves to build PCs with me and she’s deadly with a screwdriver.) The seven year old has been very patient with me. She is using my old, very old, very ,very old, Dell. My other two have my 1366/X 58 work stations and they are NOT at all prepared to lend them to me. :::sigh::: It’s a long story. I’m raising a generation of female computer geeks.

When I first started to research Thread Ripper I found no mention of Linux. Sure, I can give up TB. It’s not the end all and be all of everything. I like to run legit. Yes, things change and it is very reassuring that at least I can use one of my o/s on Thread Ripper. Again, it would be very nice and I would very much appreciate being able to run the other two on Thread Ripper as well. Personally, I don’t find Thread Ripper that flexible. I have stated this as an opinion numerous times but it would seem that I am not entitled to my opinion. Support for Windows 8.1 ends in more than three years. Why isn’t Thread Ripper at least compliant with Windows 8.1? It mystifies me. No, instead, the only Windows operating system AMD appears to recognize as viable is the Windows Keylogger edition. Frankly, I’d rather be caught dead than have Windows 10 on any of my PCs. That is my preference, that is my opinion, that is my view and I’m hardly alone in this. If this means I’m trolling for calling a thing what it is so be it but to be called a shill simply because I didn’t bow down to someone’s sacred cow is beyond the pale. If I were a shill just who or what would I be gung ho about? Seems to me there’s some projection occurring here. I’m not exactly praising the attributes of one product over another. I would simply like to use the operating systems I currently use and gradually fade to Linux. Yes, it would be nice. Yes, this is what I would like to see.

I was hoping Thread Ripper would be my answer to a very serious problem plaguing Intel users. It isn’t and that’s a crying shame. That is my view and I think I am entitled to it. Again, thank you for giving me a fair shake.


#46

Precisely what am I ignoring here, thro? I’m not ignoring the fact that I really can’t have something I want. Am I whining? Absolutely. Am I venting? You better believe I am. Have I ignored the fact that the only way I can get what I want (sorta) is by breaking protocol? Nope. I like to run a legit system and it seems to me, feels as though, I’m being coerced, to do something I really don’t feel comfortable with. I surely do not feel comfortable using Windows 10. Others may and that’s fine for them. A glimmer of hope is on the horizon. Thanks to Level One I now know that this noob, namely me, can use Linux Mint on a Thread Ripper platform. I am grateful to the community here for pointing this out to me. I did not make this post to be ignorant. No, I’m gonna say it again: I really wish Thread Ripper was more flexible.


#47

That your complaints are NOT threadripper complaints (aside from thunderbolt, which is doable on threadripper as per @wendell above) and are in fact complaints with any CPU manufactured after 2015?

You’re blaming threadripper/AMD for decisions made by Microsoft, and ignoring that everything but one of the complaints you have equally apply to anything from intel since Skylake (or Kaby Lake - i forget exactly).

To put it in simple terms: if you buy an i7-8700 or i7-9700 - you will have all of the same issues.

Thunderbolt likely doesn’t really work there either due to the shortage of PCIe lanes on any desktop board unless you use an add-in card, the Windows 7/8.1 support is still non-existent, and few if any motherboard vendors explicitly support Linux on their intel platforms either.

Somehow you have conflated lack of WIndows 7/8 support as being the result of a decision AMD has made, when it is nothing of the sort, and you are continually complaining about this despite it being nothing to do with any decisions made by AMD or anything to do with the design of threadripper.

Unfortunately, if you do not want to run Windows 10 - there is no other supported windows platform for ANY new CPU. Either from intel, AMD, or anybody else.

And if you want to run Linux - the support there for threadripper is better than the support in WIndows. So i’m not quite sure how you feel you are limited to Windows 10 for threadripper when it would in fact be in your interests to run Linux if you want - for better performance.


#48

Well, thank you for pointing that out, thro. You know, I really wish Thread Ripper was more flexible. I mean it wouldn’t hurt if GEN 1 could handle Win 8.1. When AMD is advertising Windows I think it is fair to assume that they have a measure of compliance with Windows. I suppose I could start more threads extolling on the short comings of Intel but originally I had already done that and it was suggested by someone here that I start a separate thread because that thread was about SPECTRE/MELTDOWN. When a product falls short of answering the needs of a client this does not change because another product is guilty of the same. Frankly, I’m trying to get away from Intel and AMD isn’t making it easy. I will have to check this VM thing though. Wendell did make some sensible suggestions I thought. Those have not gone ignored. Thank you for the clarification.


#49

It will probably run somewhat, if not on bare hardware, in a VM.

“supported” and “Will work” are two different things.

Microsoft’s stated support policy is that they will not enable Windows update to work for previous versions of Windows prior to 10 on any CPU later than Skylake (if i recall).

So - buy Skylake, Kaby Lake, Icelake, Skylake X, kaby lake X, etc. and you’re still screwed and limited to Windows 10 as far as Microsoft is concerned.

Again this is NOTHING To do with threadripper’s flexibility. It is a bone-headed decision by microsoft to prevent people from running windows 7 any more. Microsoft is actually checking your system CPU type and refusing to update if it is a modern platform if you are running 7.

So - direct your rage at Microsoft…


#50

Well, on the matter of Microsoft I offer no argument. I’m the Johnny-come-lately who would not even look at a PC sideways 20 years ago. I still have a lot to learn. To be true, I’m not impressed with MS BONE-HEADED decision to force people off Win 7 and to be honest I quite prefer it to Win 8.1. Why didn’t AMD at least make Gen 1 compliant with 8.1? Who knows. I disagree about the matter of flexibility in this regard. AMD still could have been more flexible considering the fact that support for 8.1 does not end for well over three years hence.


#51

Because SOFTWARE supports HARDWARE.

Not the other way round.

If microsoft did not actively make windows broken on new CPUs, threadripper would run Windows (in a supported manner) just fine.

What you’re asking is like ”why won’t my 1080TI run on the driver from my Nvidia Riva 128 from 1997? Why don’t Nvidia make my 1080TI Riva 128 compliant??”


#52

Okay, fine. I got the software supporting hardware part of it. What I don’t get is how it all could be done before. I suppose this makes me old and ignorant but there was a time you could install discontinued operating systems on new CPUs. Admittedly, I didn’t try this with AMD but I did like to fiddle around back in the day. A 6900K isn’t exactly a decade old. Thread Ripper Gen 1 isn’t that old either but there was still years of support via Microsoft available for 7 and 8.1 when it first came out. Yes? One would almost wonder if there were not some collaboration going on here.


#53

I guess what I’m trying to say here is that there is a vast difference between a couple of years and 22 years. I don’t think you made a fair comparison there.


#54

Part of this is planned obsolescence, where software companies like Microsoft stop supporting older code, and no longer updates code for older hardware.

Then you have hardware manufacturers who have to write drivers compatible with the kernel of Operating systems. After a spell, you stop supporting older OS’s and start moving toward newer OSs. (most of this revolves around MS)

Linux, until recently, hasn’t been supported by most hardware manufacturers.

Now, in terms of CPUs, there is nothing stopping them from a hardware perspective, from working with any of the OSs on the market. The OS developers (i.e. Microsoft) dictate what works with their OS.

When I was running Windows 2000 Pro, it didn’t have native support for WiFi. Wasn’t until XP that I used WiFi natively. Same hardware, different interface.

Fast forward. DX9 Works great on Windows XP, But DX10, 11, or 12 do not. That is strictly a decision made by MS. DX12 is only available on Windows 10. That’s all software. Windows 8.1 Would probably not care at all about TR if MS hadn’t told it no.

Linux, doesn’t care. That being said, you can’t get a 10 year old version of Debian to work on modern systems, because the hardware didn’t exist when the software was written. You have to use a newer version of the Kernel to take advantage of the newer hardware.

Though you could probably stick a Riva128 in a modern system if you have a PCI-Express -> PCI adapter (https://www.amazon.com/PCI-Express-Adapter-Card-Half-Height/dp/B0024CV3SA) Linux systems would probably recognize it and it would work without much of a problem.

I plugged a USB device I have into a Windows 7+ machine and it doesn’t work because no drivers were written for that version of the NTKRNL. Plug it into a Fedora 29 system, worked without any issues.

Something you said earlier,

I can’t tell if you are being serious or not. But I’ll share a little I.T. Advice: Those stickers mean nothing outside of marketing.


#55

The “shiny sticker” thing was a metaphor. I have little doubt the real culprit here is Microsoft but I still think AMD could have at least made it possible to run 8.1 on Gen 1 (sorta) just like Linux. I’ve always been hesitant to use those Virtual Machines because of several negative experiences with doing so in the past. I guess this is going to make me bone up on my PC skills whether I want to or not. I’d settle with my not-so-old Intel chip (still sealed in the box) if it were not for the nefarious Spectre/Meltdown thing but Intel really has no excuse for not correcting their architecture IMO so I would like to think this CPU will be the last one I purchase from Intel. As it stands my ASUS X99 E -WS USB 3.1 Workstation board is sitting in the store room without a CPU in it. I was really hoping that I could “migrate” my other operating systems to a Thread Ripper platform even if it meant reinstalling each of them. Some people have enough capital to keep on buying the latest, greatest, bleeding edge hardware and enjoy the thrill of being early adopters with little to no consequence. I am not one of those people. I suppose expecting Thread Ripper to be supported by an operating system with more than 3 years of software support left to go was expecting too much? Well, at least I’m getting some answers here despite the ad hominems and flaming. I’m still learning.

Thank you for your sensible reply.


#56

You say you understand that MS is the culprit. But ask AMD to fix the problem. A CPU isn’t like a GPU, where you install drivers from the manufacturer and it can work.
The compatibility with Windows 8.1 isn’t something AMD “can” fix. They don’t have the power to change Windows anything or their underlying kernel.


#57

Yup. I’m an ignorant normie. I don’t understand why I can’t run a supported O/S like Windows 8.1 on an AMD GEN 1 Thread Ripper platform that claims it works with Windows. I also said I’m learning. Seems to me a like little corner cutting has been done here. If this really is a matter of Microsoft being total jerks again I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised but somehow something doesn’t add up. I can’t think of one instance where a popular domestic platform offered by AMD (or even Intel for that matter) would not work with a supported version of Windows in a desktop environment. There might be an exception but I don’t know of one. This strikes me as highly irregular.


#58

If she already knows python you should nourish her computer abilities… namely get the girl into a programming environment where she can thrive… This is great that she knows a language by this age. My parents introduced a computer to me when I was 6 … by age 8 I had C++ down… Computers will change her world dude!

LOLOLOLOL he works in the industry… He probably knows the eccentricities of each CPU kind of like a couple of us who work with hardware and linux all the time… you hear someone describe some things and you think hmmm that sounds an awful lot like… xyz hahah…

Nothing wrong with that throw linux on it haha…

Your perfectly entitled to it and it is somewhat justified. Honestly there are a lot of issues in this market amongst all the good thing that are happening. …

I understand this point of view. I run linux for work so I am a bit free of MS dependency though Ill be honest I still use it to game but thats about it…

This all being said go easy on AMD… most of the issues you discuss are so far out of AMD’s control. They do their best with what they have just like you do on a micro scale they do on a macro scale


#59

Exactly AMD cannot fix cpu compatibility issues with older versions of the Microsoft windows kernel.
That play ball simply lay’s at Microsoft.
But Microsoft’s statement on the matter is pretty clear, they want everyone on windows10 asap
And you cant really blame them for that.
They will not and cannot stick with supporting EOL Os-ses forever.

Still i don’t really get the discussion, i mean you can totally run windows 8.1 on TR.
And even on Windows 7, but that needs a little bit more fiddling.
Because there is no nvme or usb3.0 support.
But its of course logical that AMD does not advertise with Windows 8.1 support for their new cpu’s.
Because they are totally depended on what Microsoft does.
And yeah Microsoft is clear on this Windows 10 is their current and only OS they support.

For Linux in general, AMD is simply depending on kernel development.
And as far as motherboard manufacturers are concerned, non of them really offer linux support.
Aside from the enterprise related boards maybe.
But in general its all depending on generic driver support that gets added to the kernel.
And with generic driver support i mean driver support for the several controllers that are used on motherboards.


#60

Look at this from Microsoft’s perspective.

Windows 10 was released almost 4 years ago.
Windows 8.1 was released almost 6 years ago.
They will continue to give updates and security fixes to 8.1, for existing configurations. (at their discretion) Mostly that’s their way of saying “Find an upgrade path, you have X years left.”

MS’ idea is that if you are building a new machine, you put the latest OS on it.

In the enterprise environment, if you have a piece of software that is used by your company and is dependent on a specific OS, and that OS has been given a timeline until it is shelved to obsolescence, you have a timeline to update the software to be compatible with the newer OS.
I’ve seen this done in the financial, and other private sector businesses. Also with government systems. The latter tend to find a really obscure work around to keep existing systems as long as possible.