Thorium: What You Should Know

Came across this and I found it to be a great video for explaining Thorium and its benefits In layman's terms. It really puts LFTRs, the nuclear industry, and the current political climate into a clear perspective.

Share it with your friends, send it to your Congress Critter, send it to your super rich uncle. Whoever, go crazy, the more people that get this information the quicker Thorium salt reactors will become an every day reality.

Also this website, it may have been featured somewhere on Tek already, but I'll drop the link any way because its got great information. It maybe easier to go to the site rather then sit through the whole video, plus it has all the same info as the video and allot more.

http://energyfromthorium.com/

Just a heads up this video is two hours long, so have a snack and tall glass of whatever ready before hand.

I do hope LFTR's catch on, but I feel compelled to point out that nuclear power is already extremely clean and safe. In fact, nuclear power is already the safest form of power generation on the planet. The LFTR design has a lot of features that improves upon that safety, but it irks me that given a choice between living next to a natural gas pipeline or an AP-1000, most people would choose the natural gas pipeline.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2012/06/10/energys-deathprint-a-price-always-paid/

 

thorium? more like snorieum zzzz

The main speaker touches on that issue towards the end of the video. Its essentially people being superstitious and refusing to acknowledge that the old way could be wrong despite evidence to the contrary. And if you picked up that he was getting on old nuclear tech for being unsafe, its because it really is when you look at the situation. 

Any system that relies on operating parameters that are always close to the breaking point of the system is bound to eventually break down catastrophically, whether it be by human error, or the system wearing out. Coal, while dirty and horrible to the environment is relatively safe to operate. A coal plant goes up in smoke, and all you get is a bunch of ash and a clean up job. A nuclear power plant goes up, and well, you get Chernobyl and a thousand year wasteland. (Actually its turned into a prospering natural habitat since natural wildlife life spans aren't long enough for the animals and plants to develop cancer and etc.)

Don't get me wrong, I would much prefer just about any nuclear plant over any coal or gas plant, but you have to take into account the level of damage that would be incurred to the population and the environment for all types of power plant if they failed. When you do you see that high pressure water reactors are literally steam bombs that have the potential to spew thousand year poison over a 100 mile radius if they pop.

Mr. Sorenson is trying to show people that the fear of nuclear disaster is only valid if your reactor is of the high pressure, narrow safety margin variety, and that thorium based reactors actually deal with all of these safety issues, in a safe self stabilizing manor with a rather huge margin of error. 

 

Dude! There would be no rock music without thorium!

Thorium is a principle compound in guitar amp valves.

No rich and smooth distortion without thorium!

Thorium totally rocks, literally!

Thorium , well they won't use it ...

Why ? Because the gouvernement can't get bombs out of it !

I think we are going to migrate towards this ... Obama needs to push , so does china .

 

The European Supercomputer Center in Jülich in Germany has a completely functional thorium reactor. It was put out of commission years ago. There must have been problems with it other than political pressure from the oil mafia and the nuclear superpowers. It can however be put into commission at any time, it's not dismantled, I just think they ran out of research budget and still had too many problems to solve.

The Chinese still have a lot of research to do before they can go thorium. They don't even have a functioning reactor yet.

I don't really think that it's as simple as just switching to thorium as nuclear fuel, and I also think that many researchers would still prefer nuclear fusion reactors, just because it's the ultimate challenge, and the country that comes up with a functional fusion reactor would really benefit economically from the scientific prestige thereof. Look at how much money the UK has invested in the huge facility that has enabled them to perform a nanoscopic fusion after so many years of very expensive research. It's about scientific prestige and tax deductible research investments.

I'm sure there were some issues, the tech isn't perfected yet. Also, as the video discussed, thorium is treated as a wast product in most countries that mine rare earth metals, so there may have been some legal/regulatory problems with obtaining and using thorium in Germany.

Despite being the pompous american that I am and not wanting any other country to get the old one up on us, I do believe that china's pursuit of the technology will serve as a catalyst for other nations to start their own development.

Fusion is the ultimate goal, but I think that thorium should be an obvious stepping stone on the path to developing fusion reactors. The first fusion reactor will need another power source to get started, and I bet you dollars to donuts that the initial power will be provided by a thorium reactor.

^This.

Thorium is not all it's cracked up to be, better to drop the money into geothermal and molten salt solarthermal if you want a large high power centralized power generation facility.

http://www.science.slashdot.org/story/12/12/06/1451254/thorium-fuel-has-proliferation-risk

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/14/05/12/1737208/thorium-the-wonder-fuel-that-wasnt

You're half right. Nearly all commercial reactors are pressurized to some extent, but interestingly enough the Chernobyl and Fukushima reactors were not of the high pressure variety. Don't get me wrong, they're still under quite a bit of pressure, but no where near the 2000+ psi of a pressurized water reactor. So why did these reactors explode when no PWR has?

The Chernobyl disaster occurred because the Russian RBMK (a boiling water reactor, not a pressurized water reactor) reactors had a positive void coefficient. In a BWR the coolant (water) in its gaseous state is considered a void in the coolant. In most reactors designed with any lick of common sense, you try to make sure your design is stable by making your feedback coefficients negative. In most BWR's, the void coefficient is negative, meaning that as the void grows the power produced by the reactor goes down. Why is negative feedback desired? Well, as your reactor generates heat (power) it boils the water. If the reactor has a negative void coefficient, increased boiling from a power increase (lets say the boiling increases because you partially withdrew your control rods) will make the reactor naturally produce less power. As the reactor makes less power it will boil less water, and thus the power will increase again. The reactor will fluctuate until it stabilizes at some power level higher than before the power increase. If the reactor has a positive void coefficient, then increased boiling from a power increase will cause the power output of the reactor to increase even further. The same is true for a power decrease, as the boiling decreases the power tends to drop even further until (possibly) the reactor turns off. As you would expect, a positive void coefficient makes a reactor quite unstable. The void coefficient isn't the only feedback loop in a reactor, moderator temperature, fuel temperature, and other factors have their own feedback loops, but in the case of Chernobyl the void coefficient is the property of interest.

The RBMK design, interestingly enough had quite a large positive void coefficient. When the accident occurred, initiated by operator error, the reactor was making more power than it was designed for. As the power increased, the void fraction increased, causing the power to further increase. Under normal operation the automated control systems would counteract this by inserting control rods, but because of an experiment the operator had most of the control rods manually withdrawn. Because the automated control systems could not adequately counteract the positive feedback, the power increased very rapidly. This caused a lot of the water to flash to steam. Steam isn't an ideal gas, but anyone with a high school education should be familiar with PV=mRT, so you know that a real hot gas will be under high pressure. Things were made worse when the control rods were finally inserted in an attempt to shut down the reactor. The control rods were tipped with graphite (a stupid, stupid, stupid design flaw), and graphite is an excellent moderator (this basically means it slows down neutrons, and the more slow neutrons available, the more power a reactor produces), and actually caused the power to increase near the bottom of the control rods. All of this led to a MASSIVE power spike and flashed so much water to steam that the reactor vessel could not take the pressure, and that led to the explosion. 

So you were half right in the sense that Chernobyl was a steam explosion, but the reason that the steam built up to such massive pressure was because of the positive void coefficient, not the initial operating pressure. 

Most reactors are designed so that they have as much negative feedback as possible. This makes them inherently stable. If your all of your reactivity coefficients are negative (a good design), you don't need to worry about the power your reactor produces spiraling out of control. What I am saying is that high pressure reactors can be, and in most designs are, self stabilizing. Interestingly enough however, LFTRs actually have a slightly positive moderator temperature coefficient. 

Now what about the fukushima accident? Well, the fukushima accident wasn't a pressure explosion at all. It was a hydrogen explosion. When the earthquake hit japan, the reactor successfully shutdown, but as with all reactors it continued to produce heat because of radioactive decay from short lived isotopes. This wasn't initially a problem because nuclear power plants have backup systems to continue operating the coolant systems to keep the reactor cool. Unfortunately when the tsunami hit the power plant, it disabled the backup systems. When the coolant systems no longer had power, the fuel rods (which were still hot from radioactive decay) began to heat up and the cladding began to react (chemically, not nuclear) with the water and produced hydrogen gas (this is very explosive stuff). This hydrogen gas was eventually ignited and this is what caused the explosions, not a pressure build up. 

Now, the fact that LFTR's operate at nearly atmospheric pressure is a neat safety feature, but to say that high pressure reactors are inherently unstable is just wrong. I'm all for LFTRs, but keep in mind that what you are listening to is essentially a sales pitch. He's trying make a strong distinction between molten salt thorium reactors and the negative image that light water reactors have (quite unfairly) received over the years. Molten salt reactors aren't without their own unique challenges. 

Again, let me reiterate that I'm all for the development of LFTRs, but the way you have portrayed light water reactors as being unsafe isn't true at all. The overwhelming majority of reactors are light water reactors, yet nuclear power has claimed fewer lives per KWh than any other form of electricity. That includes wind, solar, and hydroelectric. 

Well...that was long, but I won't knock you for it, I've been known to write long winded responses as well.

I must say though that dispite what your saying being valid, most of it had little to do with my comment. And I didn't say anything about stability. I was addressing the dangers if we had a failure, not normal day to day work hazards that cause death. 

At any rate, its a moot point. There is a better way, and its within reach. All we, or more specifically our government, have to do is overcome our fear of the atom, and also their addiction to money. 

I'm not holding my breath on the latter.

 

Its been shown in US nuclear testing that U233 is a poor nuclear explosive for multiple reasons. First off, no one has been able to build a pure u233 bomb that hasn't fizzled out on testing. Second, the high and unavoidable u232 contamination found in u233 created in the thorium fuel cycle causes high amounts of gamma to be emmited, which a causes the bombs electronics to fail very quickly in storage dispute heavy shielding. That same high level of gamma radiation makes it ubber easy to detect the bombs and locate them, something that any government would not want.

Third, the high gamma also makes the handling of u233 and the production of bombs with it incredibly dangerous. Even briefest exposures in a lightly shielded glove box, something that is done with plutonium quite often for long periods, would be exceedingly dangerous to the point of death for the person handling the material even for very short periods.

Bottom line, no one wants to or can build a u233 bomb. Even the indian Shakti V test device made from just u233 is almost universally agreed to have been a fizzle.

The idea that the thorium fuel cycle can be used to make weapons grade material is just plain false.

Sorry about the long post, nuclear power is sort of my area so it's easy for me to write something really long, really quickly. I tend to get long when talking about thermodynamics as well. But you did say that LFTR's were self stabilizing as if LWR's weren't. You also said:

"Any system that relies on operating parameters that are always close to the breaking point of the system is bound to eventually break down catastrophically."

So I was explaining how these accidents did not occur because of these reactors operating parameters. 

Are LFTR's a better way to do nuclear power? Maybe, I don't know the technology nearly as thoroughly as light water reactors. But light water reactors (what we have today) are really stable. Would a LFTR have exploded like Chernobyl? No, but neither would any of the reactors in the United States. 

On that I will agree. Maybe my understanding of LWRs is off. 

I will say this however, three mile island, according to post incident investigation, was quite close to going full melt down. Had the ConEd techs been delayed by only thirty minutes in figuring out the problem with the coolant over pressure valve, three mile island would have gone full China syndrome. The investigation also shows that if the already damaged cooling system had sustained any more failures after they began shut down operations and before the reactor reached a safe shutdown temperature, the core would have melted down and nothing would have been able stop it in time.

Full China syndrome? As in melts through the entire earth and pops out the other side? No, it was never even close to that. No reactor will ever be close to that, China syndrome is just a movie. In reality the core may have gone a few meters into the ground before it solidified if everything imaginable went wrong. This is still a serious accident obviously, but not China syndrome.

But yes, it is possible for accidents to happen at a PWR. Accidents can also happen in a LFTR reactor. I'd also like to point out that LFTR normally operates with a fully melted down core. It's actually not impossible to contain melted fuel. In fact, it is an NRC requirement that the concrete containment buildings built around a nuclear reactor be able to contain a full melt down.

No, definitely not fully through the earth, that was a misuse of the term on my part, but it must definitely would have gone through the concrete containment and past the foundation. The report from three mile island concluded that the molten mass would have most likely been stopped by the water table, but the contact between the two would have caused even worse effects, effects that don't bear thinking about when you know it almost happened.

To be fair, the industry does use the term china syndrome to describe any complete breach of the containment system. But their probably misusing the term as well, after all they are nuclear techs not English majors.

"At this stage we approach the limits of our engineering knowledge of the interactions of molten fuel, concrete, steel, and water, and even the best available calculations have a degree of uncertainty associated with them. Our calculations show that even if a meltdown occurred, there is a high probability that the containment building and the hard rock on which the TMI-2 containment building is built would have been able to prevent the escape of a large amount of radioactivity. These results derive from very careful calculations, which hold only insofar as our assumptions are valid."

- Report of the president's commission on the accident at Three Mile Island

What report are you reading? I really want to know. For the record, it was later discovered that there was a severe meltdown, and the molten core melted through about 15 mm of the bottom of the pressure vessel before it froze. The pressure vessel of a PWR is typically between 200 mm - 250 mm thick. The molten core would have had to melt through all this before the 8-10 feet of concrete and steel of the containment building even comes in to play. 

I'm not trying to dismiss TMI as a minor incident, but what you're saying is really inaccurate. The only instance of "China syndrome" I can think of would be what happened at Chernobyl. The pressure vessel was already blown open from the steam explosion and there was no containment building (stupid, stupid, stupid design. See a pattern with Chernobyl?) to stop the molten fuel. Even then the overwhelming majority of the molten fuel was contained in the basement of the reactor building, and the fuel that wasn't contained didn't create another steam explosion sending radioactive waste everywhere. I have not read anywhere that the molten fuel reached the water table. 

Interesting post but I don't see this ever becoming a thing. What government would allow the general public to produce weapons grade materials from thorium?

Despite your contrary arguments IAEA still lists u233 in the same category with enriched uranium. USA made a u233 bomb and it was equivalent to the bomb dropped in nagasaki. That is still scary no matter how much you wish to downplay it. 

u233 is actually a relatively poor material for a weapon. The inevitable presence of u232 with u233 make it very easy to detect from satellite surveillance and very difficult to work with. 

LFTRs can be designed so that there is no access to high purity u-233. To accomplish this commercial reactors can be designed with no protactinium separation.