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The woes of the imac pro

apple

#45

Package management? Drag/drop complete applications? Unless it installs kernel extensions (in which case, run the installer) - applications are self contained bundles. Run them from wherever the hell you like. Want to move it off your system and onto an external drive or run from the network? Just move the icon… done. Package management is a broken idea for platforms that are doing it wrong pretty much.

The frameworks are massively ahead of windows or linux, which means better applications. things like folder actions, the fact that there’s never a need to refresh because displayed data is kept up to date, the resolution independence that actually works.

Aqua doesn’t even rate a mention. Much of the cool stuff has been in macOS since NEXT… and there’s still a reasonable unix underneath it all.

I hate windows and Linux is a complete pain in the ass as a desktop platform.

macOS for me is worth paying for to get off windows and onto a unix with a user interface and applications that aren’t garbage.

If you haven’t spent much time with macOS though i get it. It takes at least a week or so to get your head around because if you’re conditioned to the windows or linux way of having to screw around to make things happen, the lack of doing so on the mac seems… odd (e.g., the package management example above). I truly believe far too many people try macOS for 10-15 minutes, freak out, consider it wierd and “Crap”. After devoting many years of their life to figuring out how to work with Windows.


#46

I mean, no? Don’t make machines that you aren’t going to try and mend if you don’t train your repair staff / make something that won’t break just by looking at it.

Yeah if you get passed level one maintenance. I ended up with an engineer at some point that works with iOS. When I had problems with my iphone and found bugcs I called dusty and logged them to him and he’d call me back and tell me how to get around it until a patch was out. Thats pretty good customer service but its not that way out of the gate.

Well calling apple you normally get someone from the US because the only outsourcing they do is to china. It’d be cool to get someone from foxconn though. Interesting.

And yeah, most company support is ass. Its why I try to document as much stuff as I can and basically write manuals where companies fail to have any support that makes sense.

Asus also actually gives a fuck. They don’t want to roll with the punches and be lazy they just want to make money without public outcry. So, to do that, they have to be user first. Works out for everyone.


#47

Yes and then you have 8000 installations of java that are all the same java. I’m talking that I need to install brew or macports to get the tools I need. I can’t just ~download a package~ to get analytics software that I use in linux or BSD. I can’t get any of the software I’d rather use and not have to belt out 800 bucks for.

I… What are you smoking? Yeah glibc is a bit out of date, but thats where stuff like MUSL comes in to replace it. And app frameworks get updated all the bloody time.

You disappoint me. Aqua is by far the best DE.

Well then you’re obviously doing something wrong. Used it every day for 10 years.

And I’m not going to have a dick fight about it, your workflow is just a lot different to mine is all.

Except you don’t own it, you basically rent it. And to get any real unix work out of it you have to hack the shit out of it, which I’m not opposed to (I’ve done that to every OSX machine I’ve gotten over the last 4 years), but it gets tiring having to reset my ports install every 4 months when the repo list is out of whack. At least in ubuntu or void I know how to edit that shit and where everything is. OSX you have like 8 folders labeled “Library” or “System” with “CoreComponentXYZ” inside.

Well as an all-os user, I can say it takes about as much fucking around to get OSX set up the way I want as it does to set up windows the way I want. On top of that the workflow is really out of whack for me. I like Chris Fishers description. Final Cut OS.

Well I’ve used it for four years now on many different machines. 10.5.8 is by far my favorite rendition as everything works like it should. My 2005 iBook is probably my favorite mac. But when 10.9 decides to rip out a lot of openGL features that I use a lot, or 10.11 doesn’t let me capture sound without sunshine or wallflower or whatever retarded thing it was, and 10.13 physically performs WORSE than 10.12 when rendering 4K footage… I start to question shit. You should to. OSX is extremely useful as… A soundboard. Or an image processor. Or a handbrake machine. Set up once, update, belt the work through. Its a solid OS for that sorta stuff man. But for a hacker? I mean if you’re a hacker to just hack at stuff its a great rubix cube. But the moment you want it to do something not even remotely the apple way, nope. Does not compute unless you hack the shit out of it.

Wine doesn’t even work as well as I would think it should, and its just fucking wine.

Good to have more mac users on the forum though. And I welcome you excitedly. Don’t mind the odd question here and there though.


#48

No, you don’t. You install java much like you would on windows. I have a single install of java that I use for like 1-2 tools. That updates just like it does on windows.

The applications rely on the included libraries in the OS, they aren’t fully self contained. But they are self contained enough that all of the related data and code specific to that app is self contained.

You’re talking about crap third party package management, not problems inherent to macOS.

On the flipside, there’s nothing on Linux that can even compete with say, iMovie or Garageband, let alone the professional offerings. even cheap stuff like Affinity Photo or Affinity Designer.

If you were shifting platform from Windows you’d be complaining that Linux doesn’t run your existing software. If you were switching from Linux to Windows you’d have a similar complaint.

Taking software written specifically for one platform and complaining that it doesn’t run on another platform is being kinda biased. My example above isn’t complaining that Affinity doesn’t run on Linux - more the fact that the general software quality on Linux is just nowhere near the same. If i want to run something equivalent in quality to the Affinity apps, there is nothing available for Linux. Period.

As far as the lock-down of the OS goes - security is a difficult problem. Apple are putting in various safeguards that you can easily override if required, and you can run your own code easily by code-signing it or enabling an exception in gatekeeper.

Linux doesn’t really do anything like this yet; for “better than nothing at” all vs. gatekeeper (assuming same base level of unix file/user security) you’d need to run SElinux, and if you want to talk overly complicated, well… lets compare that…


#49

Ok now you’re just being dense. Openshot is an MLT based video editor literally designed to have the same workflow as iMovie. On top of that we have actual Audio Workstations just like you. REAPER, LMMS, Ardour, real workstations, not little ipad toys.

I’m not getting into this, ugh. Just make apple fix their broken shit already or let them go under I’m going to bed.

And dho some fucking research for the love of fuck.


#50

“Designed to have the same workflow”

So does it actually work (any examples of people actually using it in real life), or is it like even core desktop environment components on both KDE and Gnome that are riddled with bugs? How does the performance compare (tip: it doesn’t).

Where’s the alternative to Ableton Live? What about Logic Pro? Final Cut? Photoshop? Premiere?

list goes on.

rattling off something that’s a poor copy of a Windows or Mac app but doesn’t actually work (or has much slower performance on equivalent or better hardware) as “the software quality is equivalent” (my assertion is that it is not) - is a joke.

Never mind the integration between the applications.

If you think the Apple software landscape is just “little ipad toys” i suggest you yourself actually do some research. Like… actually run the environment for more than a few hours… I currently run both platforms for > 10 years… linux for > 20.

Look. I like linux (mostly) and hope it succeeds, but right now it is at least 10-15 years behind macOS in terms of desktop software, and its been about that far behind for as long as I’ve been running Linux (since 1996).

Makes a good router or firewall though. Desktop environment - you need to be either a masochist, quite paranoid or really hate both Apple and Microsoft at this point.


Back to the topic at hand…
The macOS software library is why professionals (particularly in video or graphics) with a job to do are putting up with, and will buy crap like the current iMac Pro. Because the software is that far ahead - in those fields. The machine will pay for itself in a couple of months and be replaced after 3-5 years. Replacing it with a Linux machine just would not get the job done. No matter whether it was half price or even free. The software either does not exist or is just not usable due to quality issues.

You can only keep your userbase captive like that for so long though before they jump ship. Most Mac professionals won’t jump to Linux though. It will be grudgingly jumping to Windows. Because the linux applications just aren’t there.


#51

Oh please, get a room…


#52

bad apples


#53

You can install a lot from the App Store, which is a very familiar experience for younger people. You can just download software from a website and install it, if you’re more comfortable with the classic Windows experience. Maybe you’re more of a *nix neckbeard? You can just download source code and compile it. Want a CLI tool to automate package management tasks? You can install it with a one-liner.

If you’ve been using MacPorts, I wholeheartedly recommend diving into Homebrew. I used MacPorts for many years, but a few years ago I gave Homebrew a serious chance and it has stuck with me. It is very easy to install Homebrew, and what you get is an easy to use package manager with UP TO DATE SOFTWARE! It’s a foreign idea to most Linux distros, which tend to have software repos managed by a few people and stick to old stable releases. I understand the value of this in a production environment, but on my personal machine I want access to current releases of software. I want to be able to compile packages with custom options quickly and easily. Perhaps most of all, I want the extra software I install to be COMPLETELY SEPARATE from the base operating system. I should be able to totally screw up my packages and still have a fully functional OS. Homebrew and MacPorts do this on macOS, the BSDs do this, even Windows does some of this. But in your typical Linux distro, the whole OS is just a bunch of binary packages and things can break in magnificent ways.

Now the trend in Linux is to isolate things using containers. Just install another OS for each application! Or maybe Golang is onto something, just statically link everything into giant executables! For typical usage scenarios I personally prefer the simple approach of not installing everything in the same directory…

A lot of the complaints I’m seeing are based in lack of familiarity with the system. Don’t expect everything to be the same as what you’re used to. That’s not a fair expectation. Things are different, and for good reason. There are a lot of familiar tools out of the box, like Bash and Zsh and Python. Many of the core utilities are the original BSD versions rather than their GNU imitators, but the interfaces are largely standardized across implementations. macOS has a longer heritage than Linux, rooted in the original research Unix and spanning through what eventually was the inspiration for GNU and Linux. I think that deserves some respect.

Please.


I know I have focused a lot on the lower level system software. This is where I mainly work, so I have a lot to say about that area.


#54

Great. You should make a topic about that… you know, like, somewhere else.


#55

This is something that is so often overlooked by people complaining about how expensive it is to buy a Mac. The fact is, you’re paying for more than just hardware. Lenovo isn’t developing an operating system for their laptops. Microsoft isn’t developing drivers for their operating system. The companies involved in PC hardware are just churning out a mass quantity of parts with minimum viable software support.

Apple have teams of developers working on operating systems, spinning custom silicon, inventing privacy mechanisms, customizing firmware, tuning drivers and libraries and applications. Apple develop a great deal of software in the open. They provide an extensive set of libraries for developing third party software. Upgrades to new versions of the OS are free! The development tools are free!

All these value-adds are worth the hardware markup to me. Not everyone will agree, but I wanted to make the point that it’s not just about the cost of chips. The hardware subsidizes a great deal of software development and platform integration, too.


#56

I was addressing topics brought up by the original poster of this thread. Do you have a problem with that?


#57

Yeah, with both of those things. It is off topic.


#58

I’d just like to say that if I buy a car, and then smash the door in with a sledgehammer, the dealer will still replace my door. Yes, you’ll pay for it, but they have the parts and the knowledge and are willing to stand by their product.

There is a certain $ value after which products stop being throwaway and you have to start fixing them. At the very least you have to provide parts so people can fix them themselves.


#59

WHY AREN’T YOU GUYS HATING APPLE?! ARRRGGGHHH!


#60

People are wondering why anyone would by an iMac Pro when it is such a bad deal hardware wise. These reasons are being discussed. It is entirely ON TOPIC.

Are you a mac user? Why are you even here? Just to troll apple discussion?

Lol. there’s plenty to hate on Apple about. Hardware cost (to be fair, standard builds are reasonably priced for what you get, but as soon as you alter - price rises heaps. big problem is the specs on offer are often unsuitable), hardware design decisions on their pro hardware as of late, etc.

macOS is not (in general) one of those things. They are making big changes and breaking things a little bit, but these changes are going to be good, long term.

As mentioned above, most of the “macOS sucks” complaints seem to be inexperience with the platform. And that’s understandable if you haven’t owned a Mac before, or even spent more than a few hours with one. But comparing your ability to use a platform you have 5+ years of experience with to something new (to you) but no experience is just not fair when comparing merits of the platform.

It’s definitely something to consider if you are personally considering switching, sure. As there is a cost in lost productivity you will need to incorporate. But its not an inherent platform problem.

macOS for me is one of those platforms that regularly surprised me while learning. First few months was often “oh, wow, that’s cool” - when discovering a new feature or way something worked. Rather than the flip-side on Windows or Linux which tends to be more “why doesn’t this work?” or “why is this process so convoluted or impossible”.

If you’re used to the Windows/Linux way you need to step back a little and not make assumptions that it is that complicated, because usually it just isn’t. If you’re a control freak, it also helps to relax a little and let the platform handle it (where “it” is the small detail stuff that really doesn’t matter but is typically personal preference).

If you can’t do that, macOS is not necessarily for you, but if you can, it takes care of a lot of stuff for you. Stuff you shouldn’t have to care about.


#61

Then why is the last dozen posts about software?

no u


#62

the posts about software are because we are discussing reasons anyone would buy the imac pro.

the reason is software. thats it. only reason. because its the only legal way to run macos and the associated applications.

then someone started claiming how crap macos is and that linux is better, but it just isn’t. not for the work people buy macs to do.

people buy computers to run software. the only way to LEGALLY run macos applications is apple hardware.

as per my previous post: people buy macs today DESPITE the hardware, not because of it. the reason is the software.

no sane business is going to go down the path of running a fleet of hackintoshes. it’s a legal minefield and a maintenance nightmare… it is cheaper (TCO wise) and far less risky to just pay the premium apple demands to avoid the maintenance complexity, etc.


#63

The topic was the imac pro hardware, the lack of support for it and a video about both those things.
But it doesn’t matter anymore because this topic is now dead.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So, I’ll leave this now.


#64

The thing is though that the hardware and software are inherently linked. You can’t discuss mac hardware without discussing mac software becuase the only way to run the software legally is via mac hardware.

You’re stuck in the mindset that the price and productivity of the machine is purely linked to the hardware.

The fact that people buy macs with lower spec for more money just proves that this is not the case.

Hardware by itself does nothing. if you need to run specific applications, you buy the platform to do so.

If you happened to have built your business workflow on an iOS or Android mobile app, PC hardware, not matter how much stronger is not going to do the job. It simply doesn’t matter how much better value it is, if it simply doesn’t do the job.

This is exactly the situation that Mac users are in. The productivity increase via the software for many massively outweighs the hardware performance.

For many people this is the case, as even 5 year old hardware sits mostly idle 90% of the time you are in front of it (waiting for user input, etc.). Productivity improvements in those situations can not be gained by throwing more compute power at the problem - you can only make those gains via improved software.

As per the OP:

This won’t cut it for people who want a supported platform. Your only option in that case is “this garbage”… for the reasons above.