The Great Lootbox Incidents of 2017: What to do? | Level One Techs

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This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://level1techs.com/video/great-lootbox-incidents-2017-what-do
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copied over from Patreon as promised :stuck_out_tongue:

I know this is going to be a controversial topic, but I gotta say about the gambling… In my eyes yes it’s absolutely gambling. Gambling doesn’t imply that you’re going to get actual money back. In this case the gambler is getting a different reward.

Now I gotta say I don’t condemn them for wanting money, they are a company, they need to make money to make their shareholder happy. And as long as it’s not giving any actual advantages in the game… idc, whatever, no one has to buy it (even though gambling can be an addiction yadayadayada, not the point here). But if players get actual advantages in game (especially multiplayer, because who cares if someone gets advantages in single player right) it’s just wrong, and that’s exactly what EA did.

People have been shitting a lot on Blizzard for the Overwatch lootboxes too, but they are purely cosmetic. Besides you can buy that stuff for funny-money you earn too (even though it takes forever for an event skin).

Now of course that stuff is possible to buy in Battlefront 2 as well, but the amount of time it takes to earn it is just ridiculous, no one has time for that and no one will play it long enough to see the end. That system was clearly designed as an incentive to spend the money.

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I agree. Indifference has a great effect on this type of nonsense because it lessens their overall gain.

Some say “vote with your wallet” which is similar. You can choose to support more deserving developers.

The other reasonable solution would be to make your own game! That is how great games are created. Unfortunately, the companies sometimes snowball into these infamous beasts which cannot be stopped.

I also agree with @mihawk90 on this. It is absolutely a form of gambling and especially insidious to the addictive mind when it comes to competitive advantages. People will get beat and then need to win in return, and spend far too much to be reasonable on trying to unbox better items.

Conversely, while it has the same uplifting and addictive effects to a degree, I am more okay with cosmetic only loot boxes. I do not like them over all but they are less problematic. I encounter them in Rocket league as random drop crates that you then need to buy a key to open, they only contain cosmetics but it gives them on a random spin of the wheel and there are more rare and valuable items to get from it. These can then be traded for other items or keys. It has the same mental effect on peoples mind getting that little thrill getting a rare cosmetic item and also the trading competitive business mind side.

Regulation for the sake of it is not fun or welcome but I would be more than happy to have some over sight on these as I feel it is needed to some degree. Not to police everyone but it is sorely lacking protections for minors. What people of age and sound mental status do is up to them, no problem there, so maybe an age check type thing, account verification or something. I know as well that these are easily lied to and bypassed but at that stage that is their own illegal doing and any fault on the companies behalf is voided.

I do think something has to happen. Though I do also think that there should be a two tier thing differentiating competitive advantage loot crates and cosmetic only ones.

EDIT DISCLAIMER: I have not watched the video yet, just my opinions at this stage, I may update this later.

The problem is if you’re actually affected by a gambling addiction this is easier said then done.

Depends on the regulation but really just put it in the ESRB/PEGI/USK guidelines and rate accordingly…

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I agree on both counts, just that to get further than basic clearance and I to.mental heath checking for games would be so much work it would likely derail the while process or review of practice.

As unfortunate as it is people have to self regulate on these kind of matters. That may well be impossible for some but there is not.much that can be done from the far side of a screen/internet connection other than make it clear they are engaging in gambling, have the warnings in place and if possible the local or otherwise help information listed or linked.

In my eyes it’s gambling no matter how you spin it. You don’t get money well instead the money was replaced by rare items which if you get them, there will be the same rush as hitting on a slot machine.

But what i really didn’t understand is when you stated don’t involve the government. Why not? Banning microtransactions in games is exactly what we want!

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That is the odd thing. When surveyed in a straw poll, yes not the most official, reddits PCMR voted that while it is a shitty situation, given the options micro transaction (not necessarily for loot boxes just in general) were the least impacting and shitty of the current types of money spinning.

The thinking seemed to be that while they suck, they are almost always completely optional and can be ignored and do not lock out content expressly like DLC.

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Hmmmmmmm that icon.
Now where have I seen that?

If you can’t tell, I am being facetious, but props to those who watched this guy

The part where you say “even though it takes forever for an event skin” and the fact that event skins are time-restricted means that they play on that aspect of gambling where, unlike for all the normal skins where you can just say “well I’m always getting loot boxes so either eventually I’ll get it in a loot box, or I’ll have enough to buy it”, they apply pressure to push you to spend money because they’re so much harder to obtain during an event and you’re so much more incentivised to spend money to get them.

Of course that’s the case, not denying that. But there we are again with the restraint, you don’t have to buy it :slight_smile: Also after you play for a while you can just go and buy whatever skins you want for the Events (which technically you can do in Battlefront 2, but it takes forever and has gameplay advantages, whereas OW skins do not).

Though in last years Halloween I unlocked all 4 legendary skins on 2 different accounts without spending any money at all, so that worked out. Granted I played a lot for that back then. This year I got 1 skin (luckily the only one I actually wanted).

Valve still has the smartest approach to the whole loot box/ monopolization thing.

Instead of sucking people dry through nickle and dimming, Valve created their own currency ecosystem, where players can make “Steam” money off of their loot, and Valve will get a cut of that loot.

Cards are things that generate when you play a game on your Steam library, users can either complete a card collection to earn a stupid badge, or sell the card in the Steam storefront and make a little money. Valve takes a small cut of each card sold, and makes a nice tidy profit when you add all of these daily transactions up. The player can then use their earned money to buy more Valve products.

Anyway you cut it, if you don’t give money to Valve directly, somebody could step in and buy one of your trinkets on the market place and give Valve money on your behalf. And it is all optional.

I know that has nothing to do with loot boxes directly. But Valve found a way to make perpetual money without being intrusive to their customer base at all. It is brilliant and insidious at the same time.

Going back to the topic of the video. I guess it’s best to be a beached whale, play dead (I guess?) and not buy into the micro transaction scheme.

There was a study done with birds where a button was pushed for a treat. The bird had electrodes inserted into its brain to test for dopamine responses. The more random the outcome was (meaning the more 50 / 50 the outcome was concerning whether or not the button push produced a treat) the more dopamine was released. They then began to realize that dopamine was not just a simple reward response but also a competitively advantageous part of the motivational system. Where resource acquisition is more uncertain, there is more neuro-chemical motivation present. This has been confirmed across a wide variety of mammals; including humans. This (loot boxes) is manipulation of the core biochemistry of people.

Micro-transactions are also playing the odds. It’s easier to get $1 from a million people than it is to get $1,000 from 1,000 people. Micro-transactions are affordable and more likely to produce the desired response. Manipulating large numbers of people out of pocket change is fairly simple with a hook like loot boxes at play as well.

All in all I would judge the strategy as nefarious. The economic purpose of businesses is to distribute resources. The neo-Darwinnian stuff like manipulation in sales, product content or artificial scarcity are detrimental to the economy and often public health. This is why psychologists like Gabor Mate’ and neurologists like Robert Sapolsky are so critical of our society. This really is a big deal.

Hey Wendell,

I’m guessing that you knew that the positions taken in the video were going to borderline controversial - and that’s great - no new ground is ever broached in an echo chamber.

The common vein I’ve noticed in the last few (or maybe all) level1tech videos is the disdain for regulations on any level (the ACOG scope on the christmas list was also a bold move).

I think there is some compartmentalized application of logic here. We all seem to agree that regulation is a necessity in the ISP market due to the lack of competition and the anti-consumer behavior practices. The consensus appears to be the same for the industry I work in (finance).

However, the lais sez-faire attitude to the gaming industry now largely comprised of corporate entities is troubling. EA is not a private entity, it’s a massive multi-billion dollar corporation who’s value and ability to source funding is dependent in majority on it’s perceived ability to generate revenue streams into the future.

The gaming industry is going through a consolidation phase that should make us all nervous (EA/Activision Blizzard/Rockstar/Nintendo etc). The consolidation of large publishers using cheap and vast credit lines to acquire or force out smaller studios is a real concern and is mimicing what happened in the US service provider (albeit funds were not provided by the US government to fund consolidation).

Sure, you can say we shouldn’t buy the game - but there’s no way a smaller developer will ever be able to outbid EA for the star wars or other large franchise licence.

As I see it, we’re headed in the same direction of the ISP market. I don’t think we all want to see our favorite IPs be acquired and churned out into manipulative cash cows.

Capitalism is fantastic until the players are large enough to make the rules.

Well, you have to go back far enough timeline, though. It can seem like there is some compartmentalization of application logic, but the application of other types of regulation has in part led us to where we are freaking out about the repeal of regulation and/or reclassification if you want to call it that.

Remember that the “Light Touch” approach under Wheeler’s FCC, where ISPs were title one? At the risk of oversimplifying, what happened was the ISPs challenged Wheeler, and Wheeler lost, because (under the law) the ISPs were right that title 1 didn’t really apply. Fortunately title 2 does; and the wording of the specific ruling where the FCC “lost” makes clear that the FCC can do exactly what it is doing, by law, and that is the best approach to accomplish what the FCC wanted to do when it established rules under title 2. The court literally said that.

Remember, too, that everyone (FCC and companies both) agreed that “all” of title 2 was onerous and overly broad, but legal scholars were quick to point out the FCC had the option of forebearance, a mechanism by which the FCC can simply write a memo to ISPs saying which parts of title 2 will (and will not) be enforced.

This makes legal sense because you don’t want the FCC making up laws, and attornies general/prosecutors/etc have discretion in what they pursue. Sounds good to me I don’t want the local crazy guy making up laws either.

I’ll come back to this in a sec, we’ve got to go even further back in time.

Should there be rules that all players agree to play by? Haha sure, in a general sense yes, obviously. Aristotle wrote some interesting stuff on this if you go far enough back :smiley: Can you call that regulation? Yes, probably. Unfortunately ideals, and what happens once the self-interested show up, what we end up with is something less interesting than what Aristotle and other philosophers have written about.

So lets think about a world where we have multiple companies that provide internet and “other services” and they all compete for the consumers’ business. It is fun to imagine what life might be like in a world where when Comcast pulls shenanigans as they did a few years ago (under title I) when they inserted tcp close packets in bittorrent streams, or when they failed to upgrade peering links with Cogent, ruining any chance their customers had of downloading data from Cogent clients (e.g. netflix, but others were also affected). Welllll we don’t have to imagine – think back to dial up internet. There were loads of ISPs. The phone line was separate from the internet service, and there were loads of providers, not really a lot of regulation. Those ISPs like AOL did play games, like oversubscribing, busy signals, etc. Customers voted with their wallets.

(Actually, before ISPs, there were BBSes and that really primed the pump for ISPs because you could get loads of interesting stuff on ISPs, but no internet connection. And later there were newsgroups and shared message boards but… story for another time.)

In the era of dial-up and such there was very little regulation, at least compared to now.

I’m leaving a lot of detail out but there was a lot of teeth gnashing in the late 80s and early 90s. AOL, CompuServ, Prodigy offered data services and later internet services, but the cost model evolved over time so it was really interesting and that’s what I want to take
a look at. To make a long story short, AOL and others rose to power because they hosted content people wanted, during the dial-up days, and later died because they stopped hosting content anyone wanted. These companies played games with how they charged their customers, how content was acessed, etc and ultimately the consumers in market picked new providers and those mega providers lost out on the transition from “internal” data services to “global” data services like the internet.

This all happened largely absent any real regulation, at least regulation in the sense we’re talking about it now.

Dialup wasn’t fast enough to feed customer appetite for data. Telephone companies were selling more phone lines than ever. Cable companies wanted in on the action, even power companies. Existing copper, and all that.

CableTV was a more interesting situation. It was also pretty free of regulation in the beginning. Did you know you could just rebroadcast OTA signals back in the day? And that’s how cable companies did business absent any kind of interference or oversight from broadcasters? It was when they started running their own ads that things got a bit dicey. Again, oversimplification. Then regulation because they were too big and too few companies controlled too many eyeballs.

So because of the “natural” monopolies produced from the way we elected to do our ISPs (which, by the way, the 1996 telecommunications act is about this, in this context, to decouple high speed networks from services offered. ) No incumbent company could imagine literally everything would run over generic data services. Reading through this stuff my opinion is that these companies in 1996 seemed to think they would be the hulus and netflixes and major web destinations since they were all basically global multinationals and had all the keys to the kingdom as it was then, prettymuch. The 1996 telecommunications act was literally about separating the network from the services on it. Just like dial-up had been, but high speed.

The 1996 telecommunications act deregulated in some ways, and introduced new regulations in other. ATT and others fought tooth and nail against providing real (read: functional) CLEC/ILEC services, which was essentially letting go of their last mile network, while loads of data service companies merged. They figured out the only thing they really had of value was the captive audience. It’s always about the captive audience…

On paper, this would have been great. The 1996 telecommunications act truly would let customers have their cake and eat it too. Mergers were part of the plan becasue how could you compete? Global network and all that. In practice, the 96 telecommunications act has been a disaster. Consumers have been ripped off to the nth degree. Consolidated companies are “too big to fail” in their own insidious ways…

Netflix is content people want. The content is on a global network, and ISPs are just a way for people to get on to the global network to get the content they want. Not just netflix, lots of stuff. ISPs have forgotten their place in the ecosystem and customers are essentially hostage at this point.

If it were possible for consumers to choose another provider, other than Comcast, for internet service the market would take care of itself just as it did with AOL vs Unnamed Local ISP where AOL lost. Comcast is the AOL in that equation haha.

So while title II is probably now necessary, because of the dystopian heavily regulated context in which it exists, it is not necessary (well, 98.5% not necessary if you want to be pedantic) to the extent that we are seeing in an ideal world.

In other words, were the circumstances such that the consumer can vote with their wallet, like they could in the dial-up ISP days, little (if any) regulation would be necessary. And for the remaining 2.5% regulation we probably do need, it will no doubt be crappy in some way because people are generally self-interested and/or corrupt.

So it is easy to imagine the scenario with gaming that regulation they will get it wrong, and what finally does pass will be a dumpster fire of insanity that is ultimately terrible for the consumer, just like the 1996 telecommunications act…

On the surface it may look a bit inconsistent reasoning – lack of regulation for games, keep title 2 regulation for internet, but in reality we’re trying to avoid a “1996 telecommunications act” scenario for games, and software in general, no doubt.

Most people aren’t really dumb. They would vote with their wallet if they could. And for now indie studios can do some really great things with games and it is easy to imagine indie gamers suffering in some insidious way at the hands of poorly executed regulation…

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There is a lot of talk about whether or not regulation should exist and very little about whether or not it is likely to work. I think that is the operative question.

A localized view of the problem seems to suggest that corporate greed is producing the unfavorable effects. If one zooms out a little, it becomes clear that many coordinated entities are desperate to float an unstable economy. That highly motivating factor has produced a war of attrition that has been setting the trajectory. There is no speed bump in this course; much less a turning lane that allows U turns. There is nothing but precedent for this in every previous economic model in written history.

All of the evidence suggests that it gets worse before it gets better. All of these behaviors are indicative of economic instability. We appear to be nearing the business end of the crisis cycle.

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Video 10+ minutes…check
Hate Train mentioned in first 30 seconds…check
Comments section in flames…check
Now we’re talking!

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You are raising a very important idea here which I would like to highlight and/or translate to this:

Regulation and law does not only exist inside a legal echo chamber. The intention of making a law is to augment the common values upheld by citizens in those specific cases where morals falter too often, or too easily, or with too huge an impact. Law reflects the social values and vice versa - there certainly is, and there certainly always must be a definitive interaction between the two, good or bad.

In short: Law making assumes there are common values upheld by the citizens. Law making assumes morals.

When common morals do not exist, and/or citizens do not share the base values on which the law has been made to rest, you get where we are today. Laws must change over time to adapt to reality. It does mean new laws must be made and the old laws must be replaced, or removed. Regulation must exist, but it must be adjusted to the social reality of the citizens, and the amount of regulation, and the context of regulation must be helpful, and not detrimental to citizens.

It is certainly always debatable if more regulation is good or bad, but I doubt any one of us will disagree that some regulation is necessary, and that benefits of each regulation should be judged on a case-by-case basis, both short term and long term. And this is difficult, if there are no established social values to judge the cases by.

There is also technology, convenience, and political mantras (left, right, or liberal), further confusing the perception of morals, and creating further real or perceived friction between the citizens and the law. The larger the discrepancy is, the closer to questioning a country’s constitution (and the democratic management systems) each citizen gets.

A big thanks goes out to everyone working so hard to make rights and wrongs relative [EDIT: /s]. The thing is, we are not that far from redrawing country borders on account of common values - quite necessary to acknowledge common needs - also being necessary to lawmaking.

Laws and regulation are so different nowadays. Laws are passed by legislators, regulation by un-elected bureaucrats.
As to morals the answer is federalism with the national government strictly prohibited from dealing with anything other then national issues. Local, county and state government must have clearly defined areas with the body closest to the people given supremacy. 70 percent of what affects the individual can be handled at the town hall level with the other 30 percent divided between county, state and federal and taxes ought to follow with only 10 percent of the total tax burden going to the federal government, 10 to county and 10 to the state and 70 to the local government.
FCC is a relic from the invention of radio and needs to go.
Only reason we have Cabinet positions is because the founders could not agree on who would be part of the Presidents “privy council”

I can clearly see now (Thanks to Wendell) how regulation could affect this industry. So if we try to do nothing and “vote with our wallets” I can only see things getting worse from now on. Here is how.

While the comparison to American ISPs back in the days is on point for this topic, there is IMO a major difference. If an ISP fucks up (increases prices, slows down internet speed etc.) people would cancel their subscription and go to another better ISP in masses because the internet is essential for everyday life. Video Games aren’t. There is the biggest difference. There are people out there “casuals” who are buying games because it has cod, bf, star wars on it.

That’s why we the “smart people” won’t matter if we vote with our wallets. They will get their cash in the end and loot boxes won’t go away. Which right now it seems like we can just by stand and watch the quality of AAA games driving of a cliff.