Well, you have to agree that TFA set Snoke up as this new mysterious dark lord, who has a rich backstory. TLJ went ahead and threw that out of the window. That being said, it was probably the better choice since Kylo is much more interesting; and to be fair, we didn’t know much about the Emperor either, we didn’t even know his real name.
On the other hand, the same doesn’t hold for the First Order. The Alliance or the New Republic just won the war against the Empire, just to be defeated by this First Order? In TFA it seemed like the First Order was some kind of organised terror network. In TLJ the New Republic already lost a war nobody knew anything about. That’s what bugs me to a certain degree.
I do not have to agree. Because of exactly this right here.
In 7 and 8, Snoke got about as much screen time as Palpatine in 5 and 6. We knew exactly dick about Palpatine until the Unholy Trilogy came along and told he was a senator before his rise to power, and apparently that’s enough back story to be acceptable. So y’know what. Fine, Snoke was biding his time working as a janitor a Tosche Station. Boom. Back story complete.
That’s some big terror network that can carve out a planet like that.
[quote=“Azulath, post:223, topic:112230”]
In TLJ the New Republic already lost a war nobody knew anything about. That’s what bugs me to a certain degree. [/quote]
That shouldn’t bug you. That should make you happy. There are new plot points in the Star Wars universe. Now all of the people who write all of those Star Wars novels and TV shows can fill in the blanks for us.
Let’s rewind this to the Unholy Trilogy for a sec. Who was General Grievous? Well we don’t really go into his backstory in the movies (again, because those movies weren’t about General Grievous). But there are novels about General Grievous. Want to know his back story. Go there. People were happy with this.
We are in that exact same position with Snoke, Phasma, the First Order, Admiral Giraffe Lady, every character we knew nothing about, and every major location we had never heard of before. The ground work is now laid.
To be honest, I was quite annoyed about this Grievous, but than again they had to have some kind of antagonist. But to me at least the absence of the New Republic or its quick destruction is odd. Maybe all of it has been destroyed when Starkiller base annihilated these three (?) planets, but I could be wrong.
Personally, I’m not that interested in watching shows like “Rebels” or reading comics, which is why I probably won’t be filled in.
And that’s a perfectly fine life choice. I’m actually right there with you. I’ve only watched the movies. Well, and I played Dark Forces I and II, and the various X-Wing games. But yeah, that’s a fine way to be. But we need to understand that we’re never going to get the back story of most of the characters or locations we see in the movies. Because the stories aren’t about those characters or locations.
4, 5, and 6 were about Luke, Leia, Han, Chewy, etc. 1, 2, and 3 were about… Well they were each about 2 hours long. 7, 8, and 9 are about Rey and Ben and Finn and so on. We won’t get the back story to know exactly why destroying 3 planets completely crippled the New Republic, or how Jabba the Hutt rose to power, or exactly how Grievous came to be in the state he was in come Episode 2.
Wow, that’s some shitty backstory.
A sure-fire way to shut down a discussion is by invalidating someone’s feelings by telling them how they should feel.
That bugged me too. At the beginning of TFA, it is implied the First Order is some kind of minority militant organization within the Republic, but when they reveal Starkiller Base (the ripoff Death Star) it’s obvious this is no fringe organization.
What many people can’t believe is how they built this thing without the New Republic finding anything out. I mean they knew the First Order existed. It’s not like they just came out of the shadows like the Sith Empire or the Cylons did, and what the fuck nation-state stations their entire military (in before Pearl Harbor, and that was just the Pacific Fleet, not the whole US Navy) in a single location?
The characters should not need backstory for their motivations to be clearly understood. If they do, that’s poor writing. Backstory is supposed to enhance a character and expand upon their depth because the audience wants to learn more, not because they have to know more. It’s not something that should be depended on, because a lot of people aren’t going to bother with extraneous material. We knew the Emperor was the chessmaster and a bad dude that ideally, wanted Luke to take Vader’s place but was ready to kill him if necessary. That’s all we needed to know, anything else is just a bonus.
There was only some vague idea of Snoke’s motivations, other than mentoring Kylo. Does he want Rey to join him, or does he want to exploit her power in another way? The rest have even less background. What was done here was an obvious cash grab by Disney.
If this is the groundwork, then it was built on a Mediterranean climate region cliffside, just waiting for torrential rain to come and make it drop off the face of the Earth.
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I know. So was Palpatine’s. That’s the joke.
I feel ya here. His motivations for Rey could have been fleshed out a little better. I’m not going to say that the movie was flawless. None of them are. But I don’t know, I feel like I got a pretty good sense of what the different characters were after in those movies.
And the ground work. Don’t knock it, man. It’s the exact same groundwork we were left with after 4, 5, and 6. They are literally just little points of interest where people would like to see more story. Except this time, instead of people expressing an interest in more back story for characters and locations, we have people crying about the death of Star Wars because a character that the movies were definitely not about didn’t get explored.
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Everyday there is an article of Rian Johnson defending TLJ and his decisions. The more he defends himself the more his points seem less valid.
1: He has not made many movies. Do you really think that someone who has little experience should be in control over Star Wars? In fact I watched Looper and never even heard of him…
2: The article where he says he does not regret killing Snoke.
Rian Johnson is a hack in my opinion and if he does not like the criticisms from Star Wars fans then he should not have took the job.
You can argue with me if you want, But this film was trash as I stated before. Both directors JJ Abrhams and Rian Johnson said they would not steal ideas from the old canon but they did.
Force projection was used back in the expanded universe.
Yeah, I forgot to mention some games I’ve played.
Nevertheless, the Empire in 4,5,6 works because we didn’t know the past back then. It was just some fascist organisation that controlled a large portion of the galaxy. In 6 it was defeated.
The problem with 7,8 is that almost everybody has seen 4,5,6 and as a result is aware of the backstory. Which is why as a writer you need to explain why the New Republic was destroyed so easily. They wouldn’t need a 30min of the movie, they just need to show at least a little bit. For example, I’m pretty sure the Empire wasn’t defeated when Sidious and Vader were killed. It was a heavy blow, but they still had a huge fleet. Maybe there was no New Republic, because there has been a 30y long war against the remnants of the Empire, which gave birth to the New Order. But apparently, the movie didn’t go this way, because Luke built his Jedi academy and I believe it was even mentioned in TFA that there is something like the New Republic, because the good guys were the Resistance.
@strykerzr350 I think the problem could be that Johnson knows how to make movies, but doesn’t know how to write good stories. Some decisions in TLJ are really good from a filmmaker’s perspective.
Luke doesn’t like Jedi anymore - let him throw the lightsabre over his shoulder. (This act clearly shows the character’s opinion on Jedis and everything)
In 4 when Luke prepares to leave Tatooine he looks into the setting twin suns, he looks to the future. In 8 when he dies he also looks into twin suns, but back. Hence, he reflects upon the past.
I think Rian Johnson is really proficient when it comes to this stuff, but rather bad when it comes to the plot.
This is perfect. So we’re on the same page that the story is definitely not about the rise and fall of the First Order. Which means there’s a lot of things that happen in the universe around the characters that the story is about, but we don’t really get to hear about it. We get to hear about and see the big events like the New Republic being blown up.
So we have to take what we know and sort of fill in the blanks. Having the backstory that we do makes that easier. It’s pretty easy to consider that the Death Star being destroyed, and the two head honchos being gone doesn’t necessarily stop the military industrial complex that is the Empire. The Empire still has a vast fleet of ships, troops, and more importantly, they still have support throughout the galaxy. There are likely to be more planets that are willing to extend credit to the Empire than there are planets willing to extend credit to the fledgling New Republic. Not too different from the United States’ own history.
With that, it’s possible that the 3 planets destroyed in the show are key planets for the New Republic in some manner. Mining, manufacturing, and legislative possibly? Or possibly not that cut and dry. Possibly all 3 add significant support in multiple areas.
All of this is easy for us to type out right here on the internet. But to try and fill it in throughout the movie would either require additional time and characters that aren’t relevant to the story, or require having characters that are relevant to the story spout expositional dialogue at each other. Neither of which are good story telling options.
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Yeah that’s true. But they could have just been called Republic instead of Resistance in TFA, which would have reduced this issue.
Besides, TLJ spends a significant amount of time on Canto Blight, which could have been shortened or cut imho^^
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This sequence could have been done much better. I don’t know about you, but I was wrapped up in this mission being vital to the survival of the New World Rebellion, that the hope aspect of it was kinda lost on me until much later. It makes sense in that what they end up doing is sharing the rebel spark with the down trodden. Technically their mission fails, but in another way it’s successful.
All in all, I’m kinda luke-warm on it. I don’t feel like I need to be beaten over the head with plot points, but I have a sneaking suspicion that Canto will be a piece in the kindling of the next big rebellion. And if that’s the case, they definitely could have done a lot better. But like most Hollywood movies, we got chase scenes!! Hooray!! … 
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Yeah, it was weirdly executed to say the least. Canto Blight is also an example for Rian’s moviemaker vs. storywriter problem. The reason for this is that it served Finn’s character development and DJ’s personality mirrored Finn’s old one, but he has grown past this, because he fights for the Resistance now.
I stand by it just a show now to capture a new gen of kids until they have kids.
As soon as you start thinking about it as an adult. It fails.
Next Movie. We now know (we should have alway known DOH) that one lady in a light capable ship can just jump through the biggest baddest First Order ship and end it full stop.
So the few dozen people piled into the small millenium childrens falcon can just get light speed ships and suicide bomb the first order one ship at a time and recruit young rebels to pilot them.
Game over man !
The sequel trilogy is indeed a vehicle to develop a fanbase in Gen-X’s kids. Anyone that saw TFA recognized that immediately.
Don’t forget Force bond, which is obviously what Rey and Kylo have. That was ripped straight out of the Expanded Universe.
I don’t see anywhere where he flat out said the story isn’t about the rise and fall of the First Order.
The planet they blew up was the New Republic capital. I thought it was Coruscant, but it’s not.[/spoiler] I had to look it up in the Wookiee to find out. You can’t expect the audience to know this, and for such an important plot point to be left out of the final movie is bad editing or more likely, bad writing. [spoiler]Contrast to Alderaan, which was the major financial backer for the Rebellion, but we didn’t need to know that for it to things to make sense in the movie. And the idea that the entire New Republic fleet was stationed above the capital is laughable. They would have bases and stations all over the galaxy.
Well, I guess we kinda stopped talking about the rise and fall of the First Order, so yeah I guess I assumed we were on the same page. Would you like to pick up that particular argument? Because I’ve got a great counter argument. TLJ isn’t about the rise and fall of the First Order as evidence by the fact that the movie does not focus on the First Order.
Also, why don’t you need to know Alderaan’s relationship with the rebellion? Why do you feel empathy for that planet’s destruction and the mass murder of all of its citizenry, and not 3 planets and their citizenry?
I think the main story is obvious, and I really don’t care what the sequel trilogy is about. It’s all garbage to me,
That is simple, because we know Alderaan is connected with the main characters.
Alderaan is mentioned throughout the first half of the film. If the audience doesn’t see it or know what happens to it, they will be pissed because of the emotional investment. Alderaan is where Luke and Obi-Wan are supposed to take R2-D2. Alderaan is where princess Leia’s father is, and we can further extrapolate that it is their home as well. It is because Luke and Obi-Wan need to get to Alderaan that they meet Han and Chewie. These established connections make Alderaan important to the movement of the plot. Yeah, it could’ve been any planet, really, but it’s not, it’s Alderaan. So when Alderaan is obliterated, the audience has an emotional reaction towards Leia, and towards Vader, Tarkin, and the Empire.
In TFA, we have no idea what planet the First Order blew up. There is no connection established with it to any of the main characters or even the minor characters. General Hux makes some speech reminiscent of the Nazis and they blow a planet and four other celestial bodies (presumably moons, but I suppose it could be the entire star system) with it. If it weren’t for the cut to the view planetside, we wouldn’t even have a clue to the significance it held (since due to the nature of the story, they couldn’t show Luke).
Instead of showing it in ANH, they had Obi-Wan feel it through the Force and describe it to the audience, leaving the terror to the imagination (which is always more effective than showing). Although we didn’t need a description to know the significance, as that was long established, it plants the seed in the imagination for its destruction. The fact that Obi-Wan is affected by it so much and he needs to sit down reveals how powerful the Force is and how sensitive Jedi are to it.
The destruction of the Republic planet doesn’t have have much of a narrative effect on the story, other than showing the power of the villains and that the First Order isn’t some fringe organization, nor does it have any emotional effect on the audience. It’s probably a Republic planet, judging from the Nazi Hux speech, but we have no idea why it’s so important. There’s a cut to the heroes and everyone in Maz’s cantina outside reacting to the destruction. They have no idea but know it isn’t good, and Han obviously has a bad feeling about it. This is bad storytelling! The only emotional content it has is it’s a ceremonial push of the reset button on Star Wars. Anyone hoping for a story that wasn’t a rehash of ANH had their hopes dashed at that moment.
Those cries of terror were from the Expanded Universe fans, and the terrible thing that has happened is that it’s no longer canon, and there is no hope of a proper sequel trilogy.
Maybe it’s good story telling showing exactly how little power the New Republic had? So little that no one on the planet they were on knew what just got blowed up? In fairness, if that’s the case, then Hux’s Nazi speech is certainly filler that doesn’t need to be.
That quote is taken out-of-context.
It’s not bad because of the power differential. That’s the only thing that makes it relevant. It’s bad because no one knows the importance of the Republic planet’s destruction. It’s one thing if the characters don’t know, but to have the audience clueless as well destroys any significance it could’ve had. From the audience’s perspective, it is frivolous without any kind of background or emotional investment. That’s why it’s bad storytelling.
I guess I’ll have to go back and watch TFA again. I feel like we knew from more than just Hux’s Nazi speech that the planets being blown up were the New Republic. But I will go back and investigate. If that is the case, I feel like the background would be episodes 4, 5, and 6, and the assumption (or maybe we’re told, been a while since I watched TFA) that the New Republic was born out of the rebellion.
I meant the audience needs background about the importance of the Republic planet in the movie, not background from other sources. You can’t rely on the audience using other sources to understand the importance of things that are really important. That’s bad storytelling, and well, it’s just fucking lazy and an obvious cash grab.
When I saw that scene in the movie, I thought maybe it was Coruscant, but there was no evidence it was Coruscant, so I was left confused. I can’t be the only one that reacted this way. I already stated that, judging from Hux’s speech, it was most likely a Republic planet. I mean why would they blow up a neutral planet? It’s not clear if Hux is using metaphor or what he is declaring is meant to be literal in the movie. Without establishing the importance of the planet they were about to destroy, he would’ve had to flat out state its importance. That is bad writing.
The New Republic is mentioned in the crawl (as the Republic) and in Hux’s speech. Yes, anyone that has seen the Original Trilogy, the Prequel Trilogy, or both, can probably infer the Republic is the successor to the Rebellion. Anyone that is familiar with the Expanded Universe definitely knows it’s the progeny, as the formal name of the Rebellion is “The Alliance to Restore the Republic.”
OK, I found a clip where Finn is shown reacting after the planet is blown up. He has a pretty good idea what happened. He’s the only one in the know, and only talks about it in vague terms, because maybe that’s all he knows. It still doesn’t highlight the importance of it to the audience nor does it to any of the other characters. Still bad writing.