Nvidia tried something similar a while ago to increase performance. It was called PhysX.
PhysX is NOT a low Level API, but its a similar situation.
PhysX really helped in the games that it worked in, but there are very few games that actually USE it. So it's kind of irrelevant now.
Mostly because of shitty console ports.
I hope Mantle doesn't go the way of PhysX.
PhysX is not a similar situation at all, it DID NOT help in the games that it was in.
With PhysX, basic physics effects we're all used to, are removed and then set up as "PhysX" only effects to exaggerate the effect of PhysX on a GPU.The reason very few games use it is because developers don't want to do the above usually, and on top of that due to nVidia's absolute LOVE of closed standards to lock people into feeling they have to buy their hardware. The last part of that is because it kills performance for everyone in games you have GPU PhysX in, it just kills performance LESS for those who have nVidia hardware.
It has nothing to do with "console ports", and "console ports" don't even exist.
Mantle won't go the way of PhysX because it doesn't punish people for not having AMD hardware, the way PhysX does if you don't have nVidia, or have any AMD graphics alongside an nVidia one.
Mantle does need AMD to make it open (to what ever extent it needs to be for it to run on non-AMD hardware properly) for it to be taken up en masse.
I was surprised to see the amount of backlash this got when they announced it on facebook.
From the same paragraph:
Let’s be very clear here: AMD will not discuss the matter let alone confirm it, so this is speculation on our part.
So AMD hasn't said that at all. There might be zero benefit from AMD's console hardware, with regards to optimisation. Supposing a developer of a cross-platform game has Nvidia as a hardware partner, would that still signal an AMD optimised game? No, it would most likely be an Nvidia optimised game.
If consoles do use Mantle, it would save developers time producing code for all these individual platforms. I don't see any other benefit. While this might attract developers, it's not going to stop developers coding for other necessary APIs.
The fact that Mantle can be placed in Battlefield 4 retroactively, in addition to Nvidia's APIs (NVAPI), is a sure sign that optimisations for all products can be implemented. Games are not "tied" solely to Mantle based on console connection. I expect Nvidia to design their own low level API, and I expect Dice to use it. Surely, developers want to give maximum benefit to users of all hardware. Hopefully low level APIs will be on everyone's agenda.
You're right that this will have a huge impact. I already think that AMD control the sub $400 GPU market. However, I disagree with your view that Mantle will wildly swing in favour of AMD. There's no confirmation of what you have stated, only speculation. I'm sorry to say, Beezley; but you shouldn't be calling anyone "naive". You've misinterpreted the article.
Much like the speculation surrounding the R9 cards. Post 290x launch, it emerges that the 290x is not the fastest card. I feel AMD have been a bit silly, of late. I simply won't trust anything until I see it. But I do think AMD has done a lot of good too.
"the PS4 doesn't really need it anyway"
http://www.anandtech.com/show/7371/understanding-amds-mantle-a-lowlevel-graphics-api-for-gcn
So, if you actually READ what AMD has said:
"Leverage optimization work from next-gen game consoles to PCs"
The same optimization that is happening for the next gen consoles will also be done for Mantle enabled GPU's. To say that this isn't going to be a game changer or have the potential to really change the market share numbers is naive.
I also don't hope for monopoly in the market, but I AM a fan of is SCHADENFREUD. For so long Nvidia has played the 'it's better cause it costs more' and the 'well it runs CUDA' game. Well, time to put that to the test. If Nvidia is truly better, then the low level API access with Mantle and the reduced cost-performance should have a negligible effect on their sales and nothing should change in the GPU landscape.
We shall see, hmmmm?
I took that quote directly from AMD's slide, so...
Also, I didn't call ANYONE naive, I merely said that underestimating Mantle and it's effects on the market would be naive.
Yes, there will still be games that are "Nvidia Partners", no doubt. However, with the multitude of games not having any 'allegiance' in what GPU they code for, you don't think it's gonna run A LITTLE BETTER on a Mantle compatible GPU? I'm merely trying to muse about the possibilities and not count 'Mantle' short until it has a chance to be evaluated.
You and others keep bringing up Nvidia APIs. Admittedly I've read little about them, but please explain to me: WHY GET EXCITED ABOUT AN NVIDIA API THAT NONE OF THE CONSOLES WILL BE USING? Yes, Nvidia can try and trumpet the merits of their 'better' API, but didn't they already try that with Physx? With the lower-level coding being done already for AMD for the consoles you will be hard pressed to convince me that this won't lead to increased performance on desktop AMD GPU's.
I've misinterpreted nothing! I've read the entire article including countless others on the net.
"WHY GET EXCITED ABOUT AN NVIDIA API THAT NONE OF THE CONSOLES WILL BE USING? "
People skeptical about mantle are asking the same question related to AMD.
You certainly implied that anyone who does not conform to your view happens to be naive. There are too many questions, and it is too early to say that AMD will gain a larger market share. I believe that the status quo will remain.
However, with the multitude of games not having any 'allegiance' in what GPU they code for, you don't think it's gonna run A LITTLE BETTER on a Mantle compatible GPU?
Not particularly. Developers have to code APIs for all relevant hardware. You're acting like Mantle is going to be the only solution. I have already stated that games like BF4 use APIs from both sides.
Yes, Nvidia can try and trumpet the merits of their 'better' API, but didn't they already try that with Physx?
I've never once said that Nvidia has better APIs. They will implement their own low level API in the future. It will most likely be fitted retroactively alongside Mantle. As Mantle itself is going to be fitted retroactively to BF4.
While low level APIs have been done previously, this is a new general direction for optimisation. Within the coming year, I expect a greater number of people to participate. Developers, Nvidia, others. That will negate much of AMD's current favour.
WHY GET EXCITED ABOUT AN NVIDIA API THAT NONE OF THE CONSOLES WILL BE USING?
There's no logic here. Developers have to code for both Nvidia and AMD products. Just because consoles use AMD hardware doesn't mean that AMD will have any performance advantage. "because reasons". Nothing is set in stone, so please don't try to pass it off as fact.
I will say that it is great that people are being encouraged to utilise low level API. So I praise Mantle, whilst maintaining some scepticism.
Ok, let me slow this down for you.
I'M NOT HERE TO DEBATE!!!
ROFLMAO!
"...Nvidia has better APIs"
Never said you said that... Sounds like you want to argue with someone dude, but I really don't have the time.
Peace out.
I came on this thread to state my point.
You don't have to agree, totally fine.
That's all we are doing here. Making points.
Don't take it the wrong way, Beezley. But in my eyes, you were giving information that we do not know as fact. And you strike me as a little bit of a fanboy.
I NEVER stated any information as fact that is not claimed on AMD's site.
I speculated TONS, but there is a difference in speculation and claiming fact, you should learn this.
I often play devils advocate in making points as often too many people are saying the same thing. In speculating about the unknown benefits to performance or effects on the market I hope to encourage discussion and thinking related to all of this.
If everyone just goes around drumming the same beat, the dance gets a bit boring.
I build using both Nvidia and AMD, I would pick up a 780/ti in a HEARTBEAT if they weren't so ridiculously priced.
In MY eyes, you are eager to argue, to make points, quick to quote perceived inaccuracies, but slow to think or ponder. Quiet your mind and you may find discussions go more smoothly.
I must admit, I like you Beezley. I've agreed with you on many things before now. But I have never once seen you support Nvidia or Intel in any way.
I thought the discussion was going rather well. In my eyes, using caps lock in your post would make you look much more argumentative.
Again, think!
I have only been on Teksyndicate for under a year!
Nothing in the past couple years has impressed me much about Nvidia (who said anything about intel?) and certainly nothing in the last 10-12 months has given me impetus to exclaim their efforts on the internet.
Again, you don't have to agree with the points I've listed. They aren't my points, I'm not Mr. AMD, I don't take offence.
Facts are facts are facts. I'm not claiming any specific performance increases or any such thing. Again, like I said I am speculating and merely trying to intrigue discussion.
There is nothing to agree with me on. I think that AMD may completely fail with Mantle, there could be no performance increase, and developers could completely shun it. However, the evidence would seem to disagree.
http://www.amd.com/us/press-releases/Pages/amds-revolutionary-mantle-2013nov4.aspx
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/thief-will-officially-support-amds-mantle-tressfx-2-0-announced/
In the last link a developer for DICE even addresses the NVIDIA API by saying that they have "been using it since BF3 and continue to use it".
If you can show me anything that points to Mantle not being embraced by developers and that there is not any potential for performance increase on AMD hardware, please do supply your sources!
That's all it was ever meant to be, a discussion. Not some sensitive/ defensive to and fro. If you post on a forum, expect a reply, at the end of the day. And yes, I have not seen you say one positive thing for any of AMD's competitors. Though, you say you play devil's advocate. It shouldn't bother me.
Never said that Mantle won't be embraced by developers. Quite the contrary. I believe that everyone will embrace low level APIs. That developers will use low level APIs by both AMD and Nvidia.
Now I am not even sure what you're countering. Because it seems like you've ignored the entirety of my posts. I think you're comparing Nvidia's current NVAPI to my speculated low level Nvidia API. Let me clear that up. Nvidia will produce a low level API to "compete" with Mantle. Providing that Mantle is a success, of course. And developers will utilise both. No reason why developers should not. I have heard of such a low level Nvidia API already in development. No, I cannot provide a source.
This would negate much of the value that we see in the link that AMD has to console. Though, Nvidia doesn't have a console partnership, it can produce the same results.
Not trying to stoke any fires, but caps lock is most certainly not cruise control for cool.
Yep glad I stayed away from Facebook, really why complain about taking advantage of a feature that improves performance on half of your userbase but which the other half doesn't have a comparable feature, and which doesn't harm their experience (unlike physx).
Caps lock is meant to open the start menu ^_^
Physx didn't help anything.
Everything that physx can do, can be done without physx, either by CPU or OpenCL. Physx is just some badly-optimized features that run acceptably slow on Nvidia's hardware and unacceptably slow on everything else.
Low-level API is a thing that actually can do things better than what we currently have on the market.
USE IT IF YA GOT IT