Sound off here is our governtment betraying us ?Or protecting us?
Protecting us from fucking what?! They couldn't even get those Tsarnaev idiots before they set off the bombs! No way in hell I would call him a traitor, but I wouldn't call him a hero either. I think he deserves the title of patriot, as he exposed the wrongdoings of his own goverment to the citizens. Hope there will be more people like him and Bradley Manning.
Bradley broke his oath and put his fellow GI's at risk . don't compare the two.
Hes both I suppose, a traitor to authoritarians and a hero to libertrarians. The battle lines are being drawn. There is going to be a clash between people who believe the government should be limited and protect our liberty vs the people who think the government should be involved in everything and keep them "safe". The world is authoritarian vs libertarian not left vs right. Many people celebrities and otherwise have openly declared what side they are on.
It can be argued that Snowden puts american citizens at risk. The bottom line is they both told the truth and the government wants them both to be examples. Noone has ever died as a result from somthing posted on wikileaks.
i understand where you're coming from- do you think this could lead to a seperration of people & maybe even civil war/revolution if this sort of thing continues. (govt oppression & collection of data that is)
The real question is, will people be talking about this 2 weeks from now. Good lord I hope so, if anything needs to reach critical mass soon, this is it. All of it, NSA, CISPA, FISA, ad naseum...
I find the way government is discussed in the US very odd. The general feeling among people of my particular politcal bent in Australia is that the government should be both hands on and hands off - it simply depends which aspect of things you are talking about.
When it comes to social freedoms, the government should be hands off. The government has no business telling you what you can or cannot read, which parts of the internet you can or cannot access, who you can or cannot marry and so on.
On the other hand, the government should take a reasonably hands on approach in some other areas. Health care for example is to an extent incompatible with the capitalist model, as a company cannot focus both on patient well being and profits. In this regard the government needs to take a firm hand and either run things themself or heavily regulate companies in the area. The same goes for schooling - a university that is trying to make a dollar cannot simultaneously have what is best for students at its heart. This especially applies in the banking and financial sector - as we saw with the GFC, investment firms cannot be trusted to always do the right thing, thus they need regulation. Governments also need to have responsible approaches to monetary and fiscal policy to keep the economy stable and inflation under control - here in Australia it was nothing other than heavy handed fiscal policy that allowed us to be one of the first world countries that was least effected by the GFC.
So yes. I don't think it is as black and white as hands on or hands off, it really depends on what you are talking about.
I don't think the collection of data and spying alone will be enough to push things into a civil war. Other offenses like SOPA, CISPA, HR. 347, NDAA, and patriot act added with data collection do make it more likely but many people in this country are still way to comfortable. I believe it will still take more oppression before America is placed in a revolution setting. Ron Paul in an interview said when people loose everything they will loose it. Americans just haven't lost enough. But if things continue along this path in a timely manner I believe a revolution might be in the not so distant future.
On the other hand, the government should take a reasonably hands on approach in some other areas. Health care for example is to an extent incompatible with the capitalist model, as a company cannot focus both on patient well being and profits. In this regard the government needs to take a firm hand and either run things themself or heavily regulate companies in the area. The same goes for schooling - a university that is trying to make a dollar cannot simultaneously have what is best for students at its heart. This especially applies in the banking and financial sector - as we saw with the GFC, investment firms cannot be trusted to always do the right thing, thus they need regulation. Governments also need to have responsible approaches to monetary and fiscal policy to keep the economy stable and inflation under control - here in Australia it was nothing other than heavy handed fiscal policy that allowed us to be one of the first world countries that was least effected by the GFC.
Regardless of the validity of these points, and indeed, before they can even be discussed, there's a lot of issues with them regarding the US Constitution, which is what makes things so different in the States. The Constitution grants explicit powers to the Federal Government. Any power not explicitely granded to the Feds falls to the states. Healthcare for instance. Schooling as well. That's where the issues of contention exist and it's always been that way. Outsiders look at the US often as having a central government and it's the people vs the central government, but it's the states vs the central government in reality. Then the people vs the states is a much more manageable debate, and indeed according to the Constitution, that's where the debates on just about everything but the military and interstate commerce should be happening. How and why it got to the point it did is a history lesson starting somewhere around the Civil War. That's another topic for another day though.
What Snowden did was take information, and give it to the people. On one hand it's good to be informed. Keep in mind New Hampshire's state slogan and the words of Revolutianar War General John Stark: "Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils." This country was founded upon the principles that freedom and liberty are worth all costs - even death. So to say that this puts people at risk, well that might be a valid point but the spirit of America and the spirit in which our political system and government was created in says that it's worth those deaths. Those deaths could be considered the same as any death in a war to protect freedom. How many drafted soldiers died in the name of freedom? How is anyone killed as a result of a security leak in the NSA in the name of freedom any different? In both cases it's not willing enlistment, in both cases it's probably not necessary, so there's a lot of hypocrisy going on, epsecially by the libertarians who oppose something like the draft but support something like this.
Snowden had to know there was a great risk of something like death, or perhaps worse - imprisonment and sentencing without fair trial (i.e. loss of freedom) for doing something like this. And apparently he thought it would be worth the personal trials to do it anyways. He thought it was a big issue. And for that, simply having the balls to do what he thought was the right thing, I applaud him. However, who is he to decide who else he places at risk? Is it a necessary sacrifice? Will anyone even end up hurt as a result of potential security leaks? Are there even potential security leaks? Did the NSA make this up, just like they lied about PRISM in the first place? Can we even trust the government? Then the big question: What happened to this country? Why do we even have to ask this questions?
In my opinion, transparency > everything. There's no way to have a government for the people by the people if the people have no idea what they're doing. Is transparency via the Snowden method optimal? No, there's got to be a better more secure way. Security though obsfucation most certainly isn't optimal either, so I think the whole issue needs a ground up approach. Yet at the same time, is the wake up call worth it?
Right now, I think so, but this isn't over yet and I get the feeling that Snowden's legacy is just starting as well. Only time will tell. This could end up a huge triumph for liberty, or a complete disaster for America, but give it a bit before making a judgement.
Hero. End of discussion.
Great post COGlory. I enjoy it when people give some thought to their answers (no I am not being sarcastic - I simply genuinely enjoy intelligent answers).
I forget what movie it was but,... world is getting destoryed but another super civilization that created us, blah blah .we're not worthy, we can't fix ourselves & we ruined the earth blah blah blah keaneu reaves was in it. a certain quote went like this "humanity can change!, It's only on the precipice of destruction do we make change" *as the world is being destroyed*
Another quote, but from my dad "it only takes 3 days to start a revolution" (starvation)
An absolute here in my eyes as well and I completely agree with COglory as well. More people would speak out against such things that the governments the world over if it weren't for a lot of things that hold us back - loss of employment, fear of ridicule, government henchmen doing you in, being thrown in prison etc. Breaking through that detatchment is a testament to his inner strength as a human, a very brave soul. Just like that of Julian Assange.
The biggest fear that governments have is the truth being revealed. They know that all too well. The truth is what they manufacture and spoon-feed news reporters, and the media as whole. No doubt Mr Snowden is getting spoken about by the global elite scumbags at the Bilderberg meetings taking place at the moment.
Sure Mr Snowden hope he is ok.
Hero!
Neither. He turned the light on a gov't program that deserves more scrutiny but he also 'exposed' a program I already knew existed. I don't care for the paranoia or fear-mongering. PRISM has a role to play but i don't know if its effective. I'l keep an open mind.
Don't know but I climbed the mountain not long ago.
Villains Sacrifice others for their goals, heroes sacrificing themselves for others... Snowden is clearly the latter.
I definitely agree with you. America is just a lil bit slower to adopt modern policies such as most other industrialized nations. In addition to our shitty media that spreads misinformation like wildfire. I'm curious what your media outlets are like. If you've seen the crap we call news over here is it for the most part any better? I know personally I have to go to the guardian in the UK to get American news, which is pretty pitiful.
But I'd say the speech from The Dictator cover the US pretty well.
IDOL of human rights...just like Tooth pock with his twig life..
hope he does not dies of natural (coincidence) causes..