Sexism in our community

Communities Blog
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We have a virus in our community.  Sexual Harassment.  It's been talked about many times before and Logan did a good talk about it back in The Tek 0004 (and LittleVikings RazeTheWorld article made some great points).  The both said the same thing, but I'll reiterate here.

We need to go on the offensive. Be the immune system response. Why should we leave a room that we possibly just spent time waiting to get into because someone else is being a scumbag? Potentially leaving a member of our community behind to be further harassed by said scumbag and silently condoning such activity?

No. If you see someone sexually harassing another member of our community - [and that person is offended and asks to stop, but they don't] - call the harasser out on it.  Start abusing them.  We need to let it be known that we will not stand for this crap anymore. If everytime some douche starts sexually harassing a female member of our community, they get abused (or kicked,<del>banned</del>[,muted,silenced,etc]) they will soon learn that such behaviour is detested and hopefully adjust their ways.

This is not some white knight bullshit here and I'm expecting ladies to join in in fighting back.  We need to stand up for members of our community who are being oppressed and discriminated against because of their gender. We did this in real life and although sexism and sexual harassment are still around it's not as blatant and unregulated as it was before, leaving only the scumbags of society utilising it to make themselves feel better.

We are also going to need get server providers and game companies on board if they aren't already.  I'm sure the TOS of many MMOs and such prohibit sexual harassment so [victims should] lay some complaints, even if the TOS makes no mention of it. And if you're a mod on a server, please use your kick[,mute,etc] button.

The time has come to end this bullshit.

Update: Added good points from the comments

1 Like
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I agree except I don't think we should treat them badly back or harass them back, that's only fighting fire with fire. Within Tek Syndicate, I think we should just leave it to Logan and the admins to temporarily or permanently ban members accordingly. Logan it would also be great if you implemented a report button that is displayed on every post.

Not only sexual harassment, but harassment in general. I can say for myself that here on Tek Syndicate there are been a few times where I was going to make a comment but didn't just because I knew I'd only get distasteful responses. At the same time, we also need to understand that sometimes people just have bad days and we really shouldn't permanently ban someone just because of one off incident.

Also, sometimes the line between jokes and harassment can get blurry. What one person might find offensive, may not be offensive to another. I know some girls who absolutely hate anything that could be preceived as sexist, then I also have some female friends who like sexist jokes more than I do. You just have to respect people's boundaries. If you're unsure if they'll find it offensive, just don't say it.

The other issue is that on the Internet it can be hard to tell if someone is joking or not. You don't get mannerisms, you don't get tone of voice, you don't get mood or atmosphere. I'm sure for all of us, the people you know personally, you can tell if they are serious or not simply by the way they talk to you or the words they use, etc.

The problem lies a lot within anonymity. When people think they are anonymous the "gloves come off" so to speak. That's why on most communities I'm part of I use a real picture of myself, I want try to make myself behave on the Internet as I would in real life face to face.

I also think that people shouldn't be so uptight about stuff all time. If you can't have any humor in your life you'll be sad and stressed out all your life because people will always say things you don't agree with and humor is a good way to deal with it. I laugh at myself all the time and just blow off what people say as their opinion and I don't see myself as here to change the opinions of everyone who says something I don't like. I just try to live my life doing what makes me happy.

Sorry I kind went off in left field at the end there haha. I don't think I have all the solutions to this, just wanted to give some input into the issue.

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Well, sir. I'm currently working on a series of plugins for my clans JailBreak server, on Counter Strike: Source. After countless hours of fixing broken code from a former member of the coding duo, we're getting ready to release the final version, and allow people to play on our server. I'm label as the "Owner", and the "Owner" that approached me about coding this, is now labeled as the "Founder". Anyways, my point with all this is, is that although I'm an owner of a server, and have Z flags allowing me to perma ban, and control anything and everything on the server, stiffle someones rights as a human?

I personally allow, and condon racism (Inb4 flamewar) as long as said racism isn't being used in a racist way. Sure, calling someone a nig*er or, a sp!c, or anything of that nature, can be wrong. However, using said word(s) to just poke fun, isn't wrong, in my opinion. I view sexism in the same way. If I had a black, or hispanic, member of my clan come into the server, and several people were throwing racial slurs around, and he wasn't asking them to stop, or anything else, why should I take action? As far as I know, he's completely fine with it. Now, if it gets to the point where he's starting to feel the emotional torment, and asks them to stop, and they don't, then they can count on a ban, kick, mute, gag, silence, etc.

Now, back to sexism/sexual harrassment. I've met quite a few females over the internet, specifically in Counter Strike: Source, and I generally think they're quite fun, and entertaining to talk to. However, every once in a while, if I'm in a bad mood, I'll poke fun at them, much like I would a male. If they're too young to be playing this game, I'm going to tell them so, and I'm going to tell them to get the fuck out. I have, when I was younger, thrown the, "Go make me a sandwich" phrase around, but as with my age, I've matured.

The point to all of this is, is that if they're taking action themselves (I.e: player list mute), and have not asked them to stop/asked an admin to forcefully stop them, then I don't see a reason as to why I should take action. Yes, there are special circumstances, wherein a younger person is new to the game, and getting picked on quite heavily, and may even have racial slurs tossed around, and I'll step in, but those are quite rare cases.

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Yea you make good points.  To be honest when I wrote this I was thinking of the that creepy Capcom guy Aris Bakhtanians from LittleVikings post.

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Yea I see what you're saying.  Someone needs to say they are being victimized beore any action is taken so it would definitely be on a case by case basis.  I'm sure mods would be smart and use discetion before permabanning someone.

Of course the victims should be the ones laying complaints with any server operators and such.

But the thing I'm trying to say is that we need to group up on pople who won't stop harassing someone.  If they attract shit from all sides it's hopefully going to make them uncomfortable and change their behavour.

Updated the post.

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I'm kinda surprised, I haven't seen any sexism but I don't read every post either, if there is, then cut the shit and put your big boy pants on guys and act like real men

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True. The time that I've been here, haven't seen any sexism at all or harrasment of any sorts. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying I have seen it recently. Everyone here seems very well mannered and intellectual. so +1 to you guys and girls :)

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I think it's important to (at last try to) behave by this basic rule: treat people respectfully until they ask you to do otherwise. If someone is ok with having their race, gender, sexual orientation, etc poked fun at, good for them. They'll probably tell you as much. But you shouldn't go around with the assumption that they're ok with the behavior they're witnessing just because they haven't spoken up in opposition to it.

A lot of people actually don't speak up when they're in uncomfortable situations, so you don't always know whether you're alienating them or not. Females in US culture are (broadly, generally speaking) conditioned to avoid conflict and to go along with the situation they find themselves in. Yes, they could speak up, but every subtle lesson they've been taught tells them not to.  

You can see this happening in the video where Aris is abusing Miranda.  She tries to laugh it off in the beginning, joking back.  She didn't start saying "stop" until she was well past her comfort zone because she was trying to just get along and be agreeable.

Racism and sexism are disrespectful (until a level of respect and mutual understanding has been established between the parties involved), and they shouldn't be the default way you treat other players on a server.

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Asking someone to do otherwise would label you as a sadist (or whatever the term may be). It's essentially saying to the world that you want to be abused, is it not? Now, that in my mind, is quite damaging for someone to say on their own, even more so for a women.

I don't go into servers with that default setting, I generally play on a clans server where they allow racism and sexism as long as it doesn't get out of hand. For instance, I play alot of Jailbreak, as it's one of my favourite gamemodes. I'll usually start off my commands something along the lines of this; "When the cell does open, all T's take one step out, face the back of your cells, and freeze. If you have any guns or grenades drop them in your cells now, or you will be killed later in the round." However, every once in a while, just to mix is up, and do my job as a CT (Which is to trick/weed out the incompetant T's until two are left to have their last request) I'll say something along the following; "When the cells doors open, all T's freeze. All T's are now known as nig*ers, and all nig*ers are now known as T's", then I'll give them an order, using said racial slur, and kill the ones who follow it, as they're disobeying orders.

My point with this is, is that I generally don't use it as a term in which can be misconstrued as hurtful, I tend to use the word as a, swear if you will. I'll poke fun at friends by calling them a cunt when they kill me, and they'll do the same, however, sometimes I'll throw in the word nig*er instead, and it doesn't seem to offend anyone.

Edit: Also, if this is the littleviking which I think it is (I believe I've heard Logan toss around the name whilst talking about the women behind the camera), than I believe that your view on women may be superior to mine, as you are a women, however I believe that stating that women are taught to not speak up, especially in this day in age, is just plain wrong. Now, I live in Canada, so my view on this may differ to Americans, but I've played with plenty of women from America, and not once have I ever heard them lay down and take the sexual harrasment without some form of retribution. Women in this day in age, are taught more-so to stand up, as women do have more rights than ever. They're taught to stand up for equality, and what they think is right. Sure, some women, specifically women who grow up in a community wherein women are valued less than men (I.e: Amish), may not stand up as much as a modern women.

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I also live in Canada and maybe it's different in America but almost every woman I've met, online or offline, isn't afraid to give you a peace of their mind if you make them feel uncomfortable.That's not to say they're all agressive about it, but pretty much all of them will make their boundaries known, usually politely the first time.

I also don't think it's only women who stay quiet to avoid conflict because I've been doing that all my life. I almost never stand up for myself by speaking up. I just ignore it or leave because there's simply no point in trying to be reasonable with them because you're only a stranger on the Internet to them, you're irrelevant to them. You're not going to change someone's morals or attitude if they have no compassion in the first place.

Most people who are like that are only like that because the Internet allows them to be the big bad ass they never were in real life. They do it because they don't have to deal with consequences on the Internet, also known as cowards.

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Asking someone to "do otherwise" is an opt-in system rather than an opt-out system.  A person shouldn't be forced to opt out of an uncomfortable situation because that means the situation is already sexist/racist/what-have-you.  I mean, you wouldn't say racist or sexist stuff to someone you just met at a party in real life, I assume.  An opt-in system is only sadistic if the stuff you're having the person opt into (of their own free will, not being coerced in) is actually sadistic.

Please try not to be dismissive of a reality just because you haven't yourself experienced it. Women are culturally conditioned in far more subtle ways than just a parent saying "sit down, look pretty, and shut up".  Look at the toys designed for girls versus guys, the ways people praise their daughters versus their sons, the weird double-standards we heap on girls when they reach puberty (and sometimes well before then). I am specifically speaking about women because that was the original topic of the post (and it's also something I feel more personally connected with, being a vagina owner). I think the fundamental principles of my previous comment stand for all races, classes, sexualities, genders, etc, but I can't claim to be intimately aware of the nuances of each.

The women who are openly female on the servers are probably hardened to all the sexist slurs, or naturally have higher tolerance than an average sampling of females.  Don't assume that, just because one girl is "taking it", all girls are willing to.  There are plenty (actually most) women who go incognito and pretend to be male in fps and fighting-game scenarios.  With the anonymity of the internet, you really don't know who you're alienating.  You can't extrapolate to all women the behavior that a small sample size of women is willing to put up with.

I know I personally am happy to call out situations that make me uncomfortable, but that only happened after I learned the hard way.  I got myself into shitty situations because I was too agreeable.  I'm not an outlier, I don't think you realize how prevalent all of this is.  Women tend (I am speaking very broadly, of course there will always be exceptions) not to discuss the injustices they suffer.  They just shoulder them and move on.  

You might find yourself surprised if you asked your female friends whether they've been sexually harrassed or discriminated against--physically, verbally, and so forth.  Unless you're in an uber-friendly place (and you are in Canada after all, hur hur Canada joke), I'm guessing all or almost all of them have been in an uncomfortable or sexist or harrassing situation at least once in their lives.  This is not something that should be a part of the "female condition", this should not be, by default, how we treat other human beings.

You talk about a world that is constantly telling women that they can do anything.  I'm telling you that the reality currently is that women are told "you can be whatever you want, but you only get to play with these toys, and you have to be 'masculine' (whatever the fuck that even means) or willing to withstand abuse and sexual violence if you want to take certain types of jobs".  It's an insincere world, still.  Some parents and communities do a great job of combating the norm, but there's a reason why its called "the norm".

End of long tirade, my point is that sexist and racist language should not be sprinkled into your sentences to "spice them up" as though they are like any other swear unless everyone in the group has already reached a level of understanding regarding it.  I don't see how having a base line of respect is at all "sadistic".

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Perhaps Canada is doing better than the US in that regard (it wouldn't be the first thing they've done better...). My intuition is that you're pulling from a small sample size that is not truly representative of the greater population. Why that sample is biased, who knows--maybe "tougher" girls end up playing games? I wouldn't know without several different studies being done with different methodologies...

I know it's not an exclusively female trait to avoid conflict, just as it doesn't even apply to all females.  I can only really speak from my perspective and from what I've learned from peers, research papers, and cultural trends.  Unfortunately, girls don't always have the luxury of walking away from sexist scenarios, because they'll occur in the real world and not just online.  Just like any other kind of hateful behavior occurs in the real world as well.

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A small size of online females, you are correct, however I've delt with girls online of all ages. 21, 16, 14, etc. Actually, a good friend of mine, who's currently enrolling in College is 21, and we've been good friends for almost a year now. Sadly, we don't talk as much, do to college, but she is quite the model female, in my opinion. She's an Admin on a server I used to play on, and she holds herself well, there. She's not your average girl, she's quite girly, yet still has that rugged side to her, but if someone were to mouth off to her in-game, she won't just lay down and take it, she'll use her authority to punish said person.

Now, from real-world experiences, I can tell you that my sample size has been moderate, at best. I've never seen a girl lay down, and take any form of sexism, and there was even a recent stir in the online community wherein a female punched a male, and broke her hand doing so, for making a rape joke at a women who was drunk, and was across the street. I find this incredibly disgusting, as it goes to show that there is clearly no equality within the sexes. However, it does go to show that women in this day in age tend to stand up more-so than previous years; and that attitude may very well transfer onto the internet.

Another example would be feminism. I for one am greatly against the typical online feminist, and while you're reading this you probably think I'm some sexist pig; however I describe the typical online feminist as someone who looks at females as the superior race. These so called "feminists" will fight tooth and nail for their views on the subject, and of course, they're usually women. Through all of the sexism, the hateful words being exchanged, they'll come through unscathed, and there's an ever growing population of them.

Now, let me clear this up; I'm all for equality, however typical online feminists do not share said views. I've seen many a post from so called "feminists" saying things along the lines of, "We need to castrate all men to preserve their health, and our countries from rape, war, etc.", and "Sexism is a one way street, there's no such thing as sexism against men, because I'm a feminist, and I said so", and even as far as, "Is there anyway to legally extort money from a friendly neighbor who is taking care of my son". Of course these are extreme examples, but there seems to be an ever growing population of them.

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After all these walls of text, and yes I fully read every comment, I don't know if we have come to a conclusion, but I have concluded that this could probably be discussed for a very long time.

I really think that where you live has a lot to do with stuff like this so that's probably why we all won't agree on how much it happens and who it happens to because we all live in different areas but I do recognize that it does happen.

I completely agree that there shouldn't be some default assumption that people are cool with what ever. Like you said, you wouldn't go up to some random person you just met in real life and start throwing around all these racial slurs or sexist comments, so why do it on the Internet.

For me, I can't stand the N word, I hate when people use it. I have even stopped being friends with multiple people because they use it. I don't make a big deal about it, I more or less just leave/stop talking to the person. If I was in a server and it was being used I'd just leave and find another one to play in, because trying to convince them that using it was wrong would probably just intice them to say it even more, you could probably agree that's probably what would happen 9 times out of 10. I think the same thing applies to sexist comments towards women, if they spoke up about it in a server, 9 times out of 10, people would probably just make the comments even more.

So how do we make people who don't care, start to care? I think Tek Syndicate should just have it's own servers with our own rules for the games we play then we can just play in our own little world and not worry about what everyone else is doing. :p Kind of like "leading by example", I think it would attract people who feel the same way about the issue and intice others to do the same.

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Regarding your female friend in college, she actually HAS authority.  Not all females who play games do. Her boundaries are likely more respected than your average female gamer's.  

Also, and you're going to think I'm nit-picking, but your whole idea that there even IS a "model female" is a bit twisted.  Just as there's no one "model male", there should not be a "model female".  Various organizations and communities try to pigeonhole the female gender, give them "gender roles", and generally have them conform to some Platonic ideal rather than encourage them to be individuals.  This happens with the male gender too, don't get me wrong, and it's equally damaging.  There shouldn't be one face of "female" just as there should not be one face of "male".

There is not equality between the sexes.  Men "aren't supposed to" punch a girl because for ages and ages they've been conditioned that women are the "weaker sex", which might explain why violence perpetuated by women towards men goes underreported and is generally not taken seriously.  Violence is wrong, regardless of who's on the giving or receiving end.  But I'm not sure how this point makes your case that racist and sexist slurs are alright to pepper into your language while you're running a game.

Feminism is not what you think it is.  Not at all.  I have seen a few instances of the "typical online feminist", but I actually find them to be anything but typical.  I'm not sure where it is that you see them growing, as if anything I've been hearing a more moderate stance in recent years.  Perhaps it's just the circles you run in, and indeed there are many branching ideas of what feminism SHOULD be.  At its core, though, it's about the promotion of equality amongst all sexes and genders--and, more broadly, all races, classes, creeds, etc.  The same rhetoric, even the same people, responsible for first wave feminism were also an important part of the abolition of slavery in the US.  Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Susan B Anthony, Seneca Falls, all these things should ring a bell here.

Sexism and racism are not one-way streets, anyone who tells you otherwise is stupid.  Those violent and hateful sentiments move in all directions.  Commiting violence against any other individual is stupid and illegal, and if it's committed because of race or sex of the victim, it's a hate crime.  End of story.  Condoning that kind of violence (really, any kind of willful harm) is horrible.  Now, the legal system may not see it that way, but there are so many things fucked about the legal system, and it's definitely worthwhile to try to fix it.

For example, men are often discriminated against in divorce settlements, especially where child custody is involved.  That's because of...wait for it...gender roles!  Women are "nuturing" and "motherly" and are "better suited to raise a child".  Single dads can do just as good a job as single moms at raising their kids well, because being a good parent is not a gender-specific thing.

Again, though, I'm not sure how this post of yours in any way makes a strong case for the language you use in your servers.  If anything, you've illustrated how hateful these gender-related and race-related discrepancies in treatment can be--which is all the more reason why we should err on the side of polite and inclusive when meeting an individual for the first time or around casual acquaintances (online or irl).

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Leading by example is definitely a great way to start. And it really depends on what games are being played, which platforms they're being played on, etc. There is less (not none, but less) sexist harassment in the PC world than on XBox Live. And there is less in MMO's than in fighting games.

An interesting solution brought up at PAX East's gender and gaming panel was to socially ostracize the individuals hurling insulting remarks.  I don't know how often there's actually a large enough band of like-minded individuals on a server to pull that off effectively, and again, it's more likely to happen on Tek Syndicate servers than on most others.

I certainly don't have all the answers as to how to fix this problem (hell, I have next to none), but we've got to start somewhere...

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I had gotten off-topic, a bit. That's my bad.

Sexism and racism are subjective; there's no way around it. What one may think is sexist, another may not. The same goes for racism. So, while I may use a racial slur every once in a while within the sanctaty of my own server, I still may find it racist to say in a racist way (If that makes sense). If I were to walk up to a black person, and call him a Nig*er, I'd gladly accept a punch to the face from him; as it's something that I deserve. However, if I'm using it as a swear, I really don't see anything wrong with it. I can't remember where I say it, but there was a discussion about the word "cunt"; they were saying that it used to pack a punch back in the day, but now it hardly means anything. The same can be used with the word(s) "Nig*er", "Sp!c", etc. Back in the days of slave labour, and cotton fields, that word would cut deep, and some would probably burst into tears; but now-a-days, it hardly means anything. Sure, it's still a racial slur, and frowned upon, but if people were to use it enough, it'd lose all meaning.

So, take what I just said, and apply it to yourself; Over time, a word starts to lose it's punch, fuck isn't nearly as bad as it used to be, and I tend to use it quite often, more as an adjective if anything; as it seems to give more emphasis on the word following it. Words like "Nig*er" and "Sp!c" are perfectly fine, in my opinion, as long as they're not used in any derogatory ways.

Sexism can be viewed in the same light, but it's harder to make a point with.

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I think there's more people willing to participate in something like this than you'd probably think. When I played BFBC2, I'd find a surprisingly good amount servers that outright banned people for swearing, racial slurs, etc.

I don't know how realistic of an idea this is but lobbying/petitioning organizations that put on big tournaments such as MLG to enforce more strict harassment policies may be worth pursuing. www.change.org would be a great start for that. If you wanted to extend that idea, Tek Syndicate could do an epic giveaway and only people who've signed the petition would be valid candidates to win. I actually really like that idea, seeing how many more likes Tek Syndicate got on Facebook for the current contest, it seems like an idea that like could turn out pretty well. Maybe you should suggest that to Logan to see what he thinks.

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this site has the best record i've seen for sexism, its almost zero from everything I've seen.

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That's a freaking awesome idea!