Seeking advice on best router to buy for a small with business

Assuming normal office loads, Sophos XGS116 would fit nicely. Setup wise, the manual is almost unnecessary (you will figure it out very quickly).
I would not go below the 116 if only buying one due to the second PSU giving some peace of mind in the mission-critical position it is going to end up in. Depending on how much you expect traffic to grow, maybe bump it to the XGS126.

VPN as in link up to another location or VPN for clients?
For small branch locations, Sophos RED and off you go. For clients, the Sophos VPN has been mostly idiot proof in my experience (unlike Cisco AnyConnect :face_vomiting: )

Your Wifi-requirement is also covered in Sophos-land.


If money is growing on trees, Cisco Meraki is basically what Unify wants to be when it grows up :wink:
Say network from scratch, MS250 as the switch, MX85 as router/firewall and Wireless and Cameras to taste.

Prices are… very Cisco though.

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VPN to work from home setup, single user per location, 10 locations between local and other regions of the world.

“Sophos XGS116”

thanks will look into the Sophos options, I had received recommendations about their “antivirus & malware” solutions, but hadn’t realize they did networking as well.

I’m learning quite a lot, thanks

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In my opinion, if you have time for learning, pfsense is extremely reliable. I had a pfsense setup at one of my sites with a Kiwi ISP, and it only experienced a few outages last year. However, when it was time to update the network, it tested my networking abilities. Remote management can also be challenging since, but, worst case, if someone is on-site to provide a hotspot, you’ll be fine.

I also have a few sites that use USG 3Ps, and they have experienced numerous outages with Kiwi ISPs. Additionally, there was the log4j incident a few years ago, so you must be cautious about where and how you set up your cloud controller if you choose the Unifi route.

Best of luck!

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Thanks for the advice.

that pfsense setup you had was on custom PC or a pfsense “hardware” (netgate, Protectli, Qotom, …)

Custom PC.

However, I advise against going the custom route for business purposes since it lacks their support.

Yeah, not thinking on going the custom PC path, one more complication I don’t need

Outages caused by? the Routers?

The majority of the problems were related to power outages happening on the premises.

My assumption is that the devices failed to start up in the proper sequence. Whenever I rebooted each router, it always resumed functioning. However, on several occasions, which happened more frequently than expected, the power supply for the 3P’s failed and replacing the power supply was necessary to restore operation.

I wouldn’t suggest a UniFi USG-3P as they are EOL and not sold anymore. I have deployed several UniFi Dream Machine Pro’s and the uptime has been measured in months and only interrupted by power outages that lasted longer than the battery backups.

UniFi uses their own VPN service based on Wireguard called Teleport but you have the option to also use L2TP for client connections and openvpn for site-to-site.

In my experience UniFi has been quite reliable and as long as you are coloring inside the lines does as advertised. For your situation I think it would be great as frankly it doesn’t seem like you are doing anything too complex with your network.

An alternative that many people like is EnGenius products but it seems like you are restricted on what you can easily purchase in your country.

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^^ I'm so being triggered by this.

Maybe I shouldn’t post this because I’d look stupid but internet is full of stupid and ad-hominem so there it goes.

The purpose of any troubleshooting is to help discover a problem, not “the” problem, not “all problems”, and certainly not to just fix the issue or issues … if you ran a bunch of things and don’t understand where things went wrong in the first place don’t discount the issue (or more issues) as fixed. Troubleshooting checklist are tools, the success or failure however you choose to count them are useless metrics.

If you ever watched House MD (apologies in advance to medical professionals worldwide), the thing where they semi-randomly pump a patient full of drugs and spray through a bunch of different treatments and do DDX “differential diagnosis” analyses, that’s what most troubleshooting is. Ideally, you’d learn something new after each step or action or merely through observation and passage of time, and would use logic and eason and light statistical/probability analysis to figure out what’s going on and how to best get desired outcome. It’s kind of like scientific method, theorise, explore, prove or disprove partially or fully, hedge bets on further research, rince and repeat.

With any complex computer system sometimes you do get to the fine details, sometimes you reboot everything daily (hi Windows server), sometimes you add permanent monitoring and instrumentation (e.g healthchecking and control planes for machines or monitoring/observability for humans), sometimes you raise your arms and say “not worth my time and effort and money” and engineer your way around the problem (use storage raid, replicate a database, do backups, duplicate a backend requests twice and use whichever response comes first, do forward error correction, do tcp retransmits and so on).

Sometimes you give up, admit defeat, and decide to live with the issue because you want to go on with your life.

If you really want to nerd out on reliability and are looking for a good reason to keep the toilet seat warm, read up on STPA and predicting failures.

/rant
… now to practical considerations…


pfSense isn’t that complex to learn - given your Cisco networking background you’ll be fine. Cisco has some specific terminology, so does pfSense. A lot can be done through the webui. As long as you’re not afraid of tcpdump or Wireshark or reading the logs once in a while, you’ll be fine. (basically standard troubleshooting applies, you most likely won’t need it at all).

Underneath it’s a just a software router and it’s (packet_in, run_code, packet out) … you’ll do fine.

A good thing about pfSense is that it’s popular, lots of people use it and are aware of some typical ways in which typical deployment scenarios like yours are handled. It’s a good choice for companies because finding support is easy (you leave a company or go on vacation, they can find a vendor to fix things up).

Similar with Ubiquiti, say what you want about clicking on java served web UIs when configuring POE, their hardware is not complete ‘s**t’ even though most of it is made in the same company as TP-Link… and lots of people know it, it’s easy to get/swap out and find people who work with it daily to maintain it.

I’d stay away from Mikrotik unless you’re a network professional or enthusiast… they’ve tons of features but not nearly enough QA and way worse track record when it comes to regressions on updates … they’re cheap which is great for homelabs you can power cycle / upgrade/ downgrade whenever, but moving from one product to the next in their ecosystem there’s always more uncertainty when it comes to predicting performance and reliability.

Their latest debacle was the Wireguard fiasco. Hiring their own guy to bring WG to BSD and refusing to work with the creator of WG (who offered to help them), and creating a severely buggy and very insecure implementation that they tried to push to the main BSD kernel. Attacking the creator of WG when he brought up how insecure and problematic their new code was (printing cryptographic outputs, ignoring firewall and routing rules for traffic, etc), and then complaining about how there was a big problem when they were the ones who created it.

There is also the creation of “PFsense CE” and PFsense Plus" instead of the basic PFsense. Plus costing money (129-399/yr) and now being closed source. When they did this, Netgate started barely putting any work into the new CE version that is free. There are 4-6 updates to their paid closed source version for every 1 update to the free version. You go much longer without security patches and features. This problem will only continue getting worse as the years go on.

Before that, Netgate started going after companies that sell hardware that had pfsense pre-installed and ready to go, even though PFsense was free and open source and available to do so. Their reasoning for it was that although the source code is available to use, they own the PFsense name and so they sued people who installed the software to make them stop, Netgate wants to be the only one who sells PFsense hardware. That is why companies like ProtectLi require you to install PFsense yourself even though you can buy it pre-installed with other OSes like OPNsese.

Lets also not forget how they have misrepresented for a very long time about what their product actually is. Netgate have always claimed it is a FreeBSD implementation that is unchanged from base kernel and just has their additions to the OS. Not true at all. They rip out quite a lot of features and drivers from the kernel and have deleted posts on their forums who bring up this issue. For instance, you cant run a SAN with PFsense unless you re-add the necessary modules back to the kernel.

Other issues as well but those are just off the top of my head. You can go do some searching and Im sure you can find all of that and more about Netgate/PFsense.

edit: oh ya, forgot about back when they were attacking OPNsense for forking away from PF back when Netgate took over:
https://opnsense.org/opnsense-com/

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Hi,

i vote unifi

im managing about 15 pfsense and 80 udm pro…
PFSENSE:

Pros “PAID support available”

For what I have read they are secure and plenty of documentation and support in the web yes and its take a lot of work to implement.
pfsense is STRONG! but god the learning curve is hard.

Cons

Steep learning curve. YES YES YES
Will need additional hardware to implement a CCTV solution. YES

Pros

Seems easy to manage and escalate. YES
Looks like easy to add cameras to implement the CCTV YES

Cons

Some tech reviewers say their VPN implementation is really poor and not recommended. BS "not any better/worse then other routers (easier then pfsense)

Close environment (apple style)?  YES YES, as con an pros

AND no official support PAID support

unifi lack a bit of ability drill down on security event… but everything else … is paradise…

unifi vpn is like any other router when using l2tp… but if you try the new UID its paradise.

the inbox vpn is L2tp. UID use openvpn … and like i said its paradise.

Really if you want EZ and WORKING. unifi all the way.

i would advice you to buy a udm pro. install at your house and play with it.

take and old pc and make a pfsense box…

you will have your anwser.

just a point… if you use PPPOE with any unifi product , you can’t get more then 1gb WAN.

gl hf

note: i dk how this forums work yet… sorry for the way it came presented here

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@ucav117 Thanks for sharing, as you put the Dream Machine Pro is a good solution then and that was the one on my radar.

Thanks @sy5tem , yeah as this is a side gig for me I really prefer an easy and good enough solution.

Hi @risk , I had simplified the troubleshooting in the thread as I didn’t want it to distract from the main idea of the post. The problem started back on Sep-2022, and have been dealing with it since then.

1st Round the Network had a ISP provided router which decided to sh*t itself back on Jun-22, so my boss got the Draytek from a friend of a friend in some kind of deal.
When I got the router I decided to install the latest firmware and this resulted in 3 days of fighting trying to recover the device as it decided to brick even-though I was using the correct firmware, after recovering through TFTP it would remind on and working for a couple of hours and then will descent into a rebooting loop, did the flash, re-flash and TFTP recovery several times, using the latest firmaware, the prior and older one and back to the latest. After this 3 days of battling on my final attempt it worked ( with the same firmware as the 1st attempt), so since them this router wasn’t on my personal list of trusted devices.

2nd Round: all was working good until september-22 when the router decided to drop all wired connections (you cannot even ping the router) and only work with Wireless connected devices, same behavior after disconnecting and reconnecting power to the router. Thinking something in the factory must have upset the router I started to dig and came to realize that everything was connected in single network. Spend a day organizing, labeling and re-arranging all the connections and created 3 VLAN to separate devices. Network started to work again

3rd Round: November-22 Same failure ( wired connections drops;you cannot even ping the router; and only work with Wireless connected devices). Got wireshak installed and started to monitor the network, rebooted the router several times but after 5 min will go into same failure, I didn’t notice nothing weird in wireshark ( or don’t have enough experience to know what I’m looking for), so I went to disconnect all connections from the switches , restarted the router and monitored with wireshark only with my machine connected, all good, then went to reconnect device by device until everything was connected again , but couldn’t find any culprit and router didn’t cr@p out again. After this router would crap out every couple of weeks or once a month and I couldn’t correalted to anything ( any new device connecting to the network, power problems etc). The problem will last a whole day and next day all works ok.

4th Round Jan-23, I had manage to get a spare draytek router and have it configured with same settigns as the main one, once the usual monthly failure came I proceeded to change the router and everything worked fine after the swap. Problem hasn’t returned.

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I’ve never used UniFi or the specific hardware, but the specs seem anemic:
Quad-core ARM® Cortex®-A57 at 1.7 GHz
LOL, my ISP-provided plastic router at least has a couple x86 cores.
Do you really need another integrated PoE switch? Seems to me that all you need is 1WAN + 2LAN ports for the switches uplink, and some computer to shuffle packets around.

I’d separate out the router an AP functions, and go for something like pfSense. If you want to do other things on your router as well, like hosting CCTV, maybe install pfSense in a VM(make sure to PCIe-forward NICs). This way you could easily add CCTV functionality later. You can even run the Unify controller application in a VM, AFAIK.

Just get some old/low-end x86 hardware, put some 10G ethernet card in it, and run pfSense.

If you have up to 1 Gb/s internet connection, you might be able to get away with some mid-tier consumer router hardware and OpenWRT.

Also see:

@max1220 Thanks,

our traffic inst much, we currently have fibre with basic service: 300mb/s (I know really slow), and the traffic we expect with VPN connection is low as well, read and write files to a server, but just 2 users max at same time, so still good enough.

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If those x86 cores are atom type then they arent really any better than an ARM core.
The UDM-SE is capable of 3.5gbps throughput with IDS/IPS turned on, and 9 gbps with just basic firewall functionality used. So the core specs may seem low, but they are plenty capable.

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Maybe they have some sort of hardware accelerators, IDK…
They actually aren’t that expensive.

But I’m fairly certain that a good ol’ x86 computer can beat it in performance for the same price, at least if you’re okay with buying a used part or two(also there is no vendor login, easily install any OS, platform will definitely still exist in 10 years, flexibility to do other things like VMs, NAS, etc.).

The appliance actually seems like a really good deal when you actually need PoE. Seems to me it’s optimized for deploying a bunch of APs, directly attached to the appliance. I bet a good part of the cost of this device is in it’s PoE capability. Maybe I’m off here, I don’t have a lot of experience with this type of equipment, but I’d still go with x86 for the performance and more standard hardware(which I assume is easier to manage in the long run).

Methinks you have a loop in your layer2 switch topology

Do you have any servers on the net with multiple interfaces, possibly connected to different switches?

@MadMatt
Thanks, we have 2 server, but cant remember if any of them have more than one NIC card, will confirm later in the day.

Nice article will give it a good read.

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Isn’t that standard/best practice when the server needs to be available at all times?