Richard Stallman Owns Man Pages

Close enough! :+1:

This is why I prefer BSD licenses. You know youā€™re giving people the right to do whatever they want with your code, except claim they wrote it. Yes, youā€™re giving away a lot of your rights, but you know what youā€™re getting into. Much less drama (yes thereā€™s been drama, ironically, most of which was because of people using GPL licenses for patches of BSD code) that way.

Stallmanā€™s a zealot. Nothing wrong with being a zealot, they can be incredibly useful. The team leader of my favourite OS, OpenBSD, can be a bit of an asshole. Assholes can be incredibly useful too. Especially when theyā€™re right most of the time :wink:

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For the most part I think Linus Torvalds is an asshole. but I understand where he comes from. but the problem though is negative reinforcement is not going to make people want to join you and help you. yeah people should have thicker skin, but there are times where a lot of the language that Linus uses, is un-necessary.

This is the point of view most have until they get to review patches for large complex and critical software projects. Once youā€™re there you become like a defensive parent watching over your baby project.

Also sidenote: everyone always only seems to notice when Linus rages at someone, never when heā€™s nice? Heā€™s nice lots of times actually. Selection bias perhaps the reason that most donā€™t notice?

So yeah I think heā€™s a nice kind of asshole. The Drill Instructor kind of asshole if you will.

Back on topic:
Working on the Linux Kernel carries & requires a certain kind of personal responsibility thatā€™s hard to acquire and even harder to teach.
Itā€™s like asking how to train an astronaut. There isnā€™t a single guaranteed step by process if you want to start with an average Joe with basic skills. Rather most astronaut candidates already come with the special mindset and other requirements that they have acquired themselves. NASA just teaches them the spacecraftā€™s and procedures.

Hence why Linus doesnā€™t coddle or use positive reinforcement when someone screws up bad. Thereā€™s isnā€™t much time and room for errors so trial by fire is the shortest path to weed out the pack.

I hope that makes sense, since this is a rather tricky subject involving too many psychological and societal angles to succinctly put into words in one post.

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Thank the gods for assholes and zealots ^^

Without them, open source and free software wouldnā€™t be where itā€™s at today.

itā€™s probably because people are SICK TO THE BLOODY TEETH of identity politics and labels and buzzwords. I ABHOR all of the things youā€™ve mentioned. I abhor people who want to silence others or keep others down. I am ON [vaguely] YOUR SIDE.

But you throwing out labels and buzzwords and SJW that and this DOES NOT HELP. It makes you sound like youā€™re 15 and just discovered InfoWars. NOBODY COMES HERE FOR THAT. A BETTER way to do it is just by posting the article without the angry buzzwords and instead just calmly explaining what you think about it, and then foster an actual discussion.

Also the entire thing is a complete non-troversy, which probably shouldā€™ve alerted you to whether it would be a constructive topic or not.

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Anyone want to make a storyline of how a similar issue would have gone down at Microsoft?

The following is a 100% totally REAL email excerpt from internal microsoft correspondence:

DEV 1 to MANAGER

Hey the windows VBS help documentation has this really old joke in it thatā€™s in poor taste, can we remove it?

[ Joke attached]

Proj MANAGER 1 to DEV 1

Uh wow thatā€™s a bad joke. Canā€™t have that. Who wrote that?

[CC Proj MANAGER 2]


Proj MANAGER 2 to Proj MANAGER 1

Looks like it was Steve Balmer


STEVE BALMER to ALL ~screaming like steve balmer~

You MENTIONED my NAAAME!
THAT"S MY JOKE
I LOVE THAT JOKE
THERE ARE MANY OTHERS LIKE IT
BUT THAT ONE IS MINE!

It stays in.

Signed: Stevo


ALL

WTF?


Steve doesnā€™t even work here anymore. When did he ever write code for us?

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I sometimes wonder if thatā€™s actually true.

For example, if you were just as unwavering as Theo or Linus, but donā€™t ever yell or insult anyone; i.e. you reject the same code but do so factually and politely - would your project be just as well off?

Iā€™ve always seen the ā€œassholeā€-ness as a byproduct of someone who is very dedicated and passionate, but looses their temper. I would credit the success to the dedication, not the temper and outbursts.

A zealot, on the other hand, is probably useful in its own right. Especially when it leads people to reverse engineer drivers and firmware that are proprietary. You are probably willing to spend less time on free drivers for a network card or something else if you give yourself the option of a proprietary alternative.

Then again, if the proprietary alternative is that much better that it gives you more money/free time/efficiency, you might be able to spend that on writing opensource code faster. Who knows which is really better in the long run.

Oh, Iā€™m not saying open source/free software necessarily needs them, Iā€™m saying that quite a few of them have made incredibly important contributions, either in code or in other ways.

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Well, we do call it Linux, not GNU. That should speak for itself.

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I canā€™t tell, are you referring to GNU Hurd vs Linux becoming dominant, or the naming GNU/Linux never catching on, or something else?

In both cases, I would guess the deciding factor was technical rather than personality.

To my knowledge: Linux became popular because the alternative monolithic kernel project, BSD, was stuck in licensing issues.

My opinion is that GNU/Linux didnā€™t catch on because the kernel is what brings everyone together, some people use non-GNU libc, some use an alternative to GNU bash, etc. but the mishmash is all on top of Linux (except for Debianā€™s experiments with alternate kernels. Ex: GNU/kFreeBSD).

Thatā€™s the best 1 line summary Iā€™ve ever seen of RMS.

I really wish Linux had gone BSD license with BSD userland. So much of GNU is ā€œdifferent to Unix for no good reasonā€.

The Linux kernel is great, but the userland toolsā€¦ not so much. And the license is viral.

See discussions with Theo de Raadt a few years ago about GNU hippies taking BSD code and re-licensing it so contributions couldnā€™t be sent back upstreamā€¦ purely because someone wanted to stamp GNU all over the previously more openly licensed code.

Iā€™m not sure it could be possible to send a bigger ā€œfuck youā€ to the original developer of a project.

The hypocrisy among some of the GNU developers is amazing.

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While I would agree with burn out, I disagree with no talent. gcc and emacs arenā€™t nothing. It would be nice if we werenā€™t suffering from GNUisms (style and GNU C and various GNU extensions) and I wish emacs used scheme instead of elisp, but I donā€™t think these faults make him a no talent hack. I do think that since he put politics in front of making good code, and getting so worked up over percieved slights (and actual ones), he lost his edge. I think he could have handled everything a lot better, but as has been pointed out, heā€™s pretty autistic. Iā€™ve talked to him in emails (remarkably he really does answer anyone who emails him), and itā€™s very clear that he lives in a very particular bubble.

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GCC and EMACS arenā€™t nothing, but RMS isnā€™t solely responsible for them, and clang and vi are superior anyhow.

/holywar

RMS and his ideology have actively made GCC worse due to unreasonable fanaticism. The most input he has had to GCC for example in recent years is to make it worse/stifle development.

ref: https://clang.llvm.org/comparison.html

Screeching it all the way like a four year old with coprolalia. Then:

Yes. For apparent reasons.

Man, you are welcome to share your opinions, I may even agree with your opinions to a large extent. Stallman is a zealot, but he isnā€™t my existential enemy. Screeching alt-right and alt-left yahoos are, because they are so damn busy triggering that little reason comes out of any interaction - because they overwhelm everything with broken feelings and then try to choke the life of any intelligent discussion, because it is so damn important to them, fuck the world and everyone else in it. You do you.

I care about the Stallman topic, but not about the tone, so kindly, if you (and anyone else similarly inclined) have the capacity for it - cut the aggression. You may end up having a far more rewarding discussion than this.

Considering I am neither, Iā€™d say you and a few others are the ones being overly sensitive.

Maybe turn off the news if youā€™re so easily irate about everything.

Anyway, Iā€™m done defending myself against something Iā€™m not.

I believe RMS has been diagnosed as being on the spectrum and his lack of personal empathy is at times legendary. Whilst I am in no way qualified to diagnose, the way he acts certainly reminds me of a few people I have worked with who have been diagnosed with Aspergerā€™s.

To be honest there are a lot of us who work in systems or software engineering who would score highly on a test & not understand why someone else is distressed about something. As a kid I never understood why people would get so upset when loved ones died (especially pets), I used to think they were odd being upset by something so natural as death. Some people with Aspergerā€™s can be like that multiplied by 100! Still, they can usually learn correct behaviors and social niceties, but everyone is different.

No one is nearly as sensitive about anything youā€™ve said, as you are sensitive about Stallman. Whatever he did to you, he must pay.

What news?

Am I more irate about something here than you are irate about something here?

Maybe first take the advice you give?

I donā€™t know what you are. Only the way you communicate and what you communicate, which is all that defines you here.

I donā€™t care you to defend yourself, excuse yourself, or explain yourself. Just to man up and keep whatever possessed you away from yourself for long enough to make sense and discuss the damn topic as the intelligent and decent being you are. That is not attacking you.

Now Iā€™ve said all Iā€™ve had to say as well.

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Iā€™ve stated my feelings pretty clearly as to why I dislike Stallman (as have others). Evidence was provided to suggest he may have changed, which I am more than receptive to, as stated above in response to said video.

Deal with it. Stallman and the nVidia haters can be passionate and dbaggy, but I canā€™t? Piss off, this is the one time Iā€™ve made a ranty thread in this forum. If you were as objective as youā€™re demanding me to be, you would have just ignored it. I edited the original post so as to not upset anyone else that stumbles upon it. No more ā€œSā€ words from me.

Cā€™mon guys, no need to be all pissy with each other. This is literally just a (relatively) anonymous tech forum, no reason to get worked up over other peopleā€™s opinions.

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