LTT 1 month Linux Challenge thread

to be blunt i entirely agreed with linus on the wan show discussing his jump to linux.
things you would expect to work out the box dont, and fixing stuff when you have no idea other than google. is not fun.

i went for weeks thinking i had the nvidia drivers installed properly, then i started wondering why hashing was taking hours on my system but minutes on the tutorials i was watching.
turns out i installed the drivers but i didnt manually switch the noveau drivers off.
yay!.. :frowning:

yeah not the best start.
6 months after returning to it, i can say its usable.
but the new user experience, for me?.
sucked.

oh and the gtx970 works fine.

2 Likes

Don’t worry… it is all so delayed that us Floatplaners only have the first episode as well :joy:

… and why do I only learn about their private discord server here? o.O’

2 Likes

Linus’ comments were extremely valid IMO for a fresh new user. Ive used linux consistently for years and have distro hopped but come back to ubuntu (for better or for worse) every time. Those who cant see some of these things that need to be said (in relation to new users) are kidding themselves. I recall all manner of things not working, hybrid graphics, wifi cards, touch pads out of the box… It makes it difficult however i was a enthusiastic and willing to engage/learn participant, i can see however, that for the average user this can and will be a show stopper and they will just jump back to what is familiar, be it mac or windows as they have essentially grown up with it.

1 Like

I personally think the users who will be most challenged in a switch to linux, are the intermediate, but not advanced users.

A long time ago I put Linux on my parents’s old laptop after they’d complained it was running slow on windows and wanted me to set it up newly. They didn’t even notice that it wasn’t windows for quite a while, as they were just editing some documents and browsing the web.

But I simultaneously can’t imagine any friends of mine who game a lot to be able to switch to Linux without a hassle. Or those wanting to do Photo Editing, 3D Modeling, etc…
Intermediate Users, who want to do more than basic tasks, but don’t have any in-depth knowledge of how Linux works, will be challenged the most.

11 Likes

I did the same thing for my mum’s old laptop… It was getting slow and she didn’t have the means to replace it at the time. So I installed Mint with Xfce on it, which she happily used for a couple more years.
She is a basic user who only does some browsing, mail and basic document writing. And for her that was just fine (as long as I periodically did the maintenance/updates for her).

But for myself…
I (finally!) updated my own system a couple months back and used the old one to see if linux was suitable to run the games me and my wife play. And I ran into very similar issues as Linus and Luke!

I’d place myself somewhere between intermediate and advanced if you want to categorise users like that. I mean… I worked in IT, did tech support and managed loads of applications.
But I needed some friends (and hopped some distros) who daily drive linux to get me up and running. And even then we ran into weird things they couldn’t help me with.

In the end I ran into DRM issues with the games we played, so I abandoned the project…
But I really agree with Linus bringing up the issues with the user experience; it really lacks any cohesion and makes getting into any distro quite a pain.

3 Likes

Unfortunately this is bound to get much more complicated as time goes on.

The Open Source side has built Mesa, which has started to replace more and more of what Nvidia does. Since Nvidia refuses to play ball with Mesa, Linux is increasingly going ahead without them. Nvidias strategy of developing a single driver for both Windows and Linux is thus starting to backfire on Linux - the platforms are simply drifting apart too much.

The problem: Right now you have Kernel → Nvidia driver or Kernel → AMD/Intel/everyoneElse driver → Mesa, which makes the drivers of everyone else a lot leaner and meaner on Linux. Heck, it is now entirely feasible to just provide a low level driver that supplies Vulkan, and the rest of the stack will automatically support everything else (OpenGL, hw encoding/decoding, OpenCL, et cetera).

It takes a lot longer to get this right, but the key pieces are finally in place which means that you won’t need to worry about NVenc/NVdec anymore, you simply tell the Mesa stack to do HWEnc and that would then translate to whatever implementation(s) exist on the graphics card. Plus a lot of other interesting parts like hot-loading graphic modules on the fly without killing Xorg/Wayland.

Of course, this will take years to trickle down to an actual LTS release, so for now the old broken Nvidia way of doing things still works. Just be aware that Nvidia at it’s current trajectory will find it increasingly harder to keep up with Intel and AMD on Linux.

But yeah, now we’re digressing from the main topic which is All the Stupid Shit™ Luke and Linus found while daily-driving Linux as their gaming machine (fair and unfair), so I’ll shut up now. Just having that feedback from two power users is invaluable IMO. :slight_smile:

4 Likes

I can’t wait for Intel Alchemist GPUs.
Hopefully it’s as good as I’m hoping for.

It’ll probably take a while before there are any mature drivers for a while though… It is all new tech and I think that in both Windows and Linux land it’ll have some growing pains (especially for the early adopters).

I’m sure there’ll be some pains, but if I’m not mistaken it seems like Intel is planning to integrate the new GPUs into their existing drivers, like intel-media-driver on Linux. And those have been great for a while.

In any case I’d prefer that over having another bad experience with AMD or having to use closed-source Nvidia, but that’s just for me personally.

Idk, I have a lot of criticism regarding the first video and regarding WAN Show comments from Linus.

I agree on the SEO thing and would go much further to say that there is no real difference between Linux distros. There are customizations that you can make on all of them and swap components in it. The easiest thing is to do is to distro hop if you want to change parts and have someone else support your system (distro devs, with the updates for new versions of the software). But those changes you can do yourself, with patience.

And this is coming from someone who hates distro hopping and has for a few years now, first because I distro hopped a lot in my early years of using Linux and second, because I’m tired of restarting everything from scratch on a fresh installation. And I’m talking about setting up my environment and looking for the packages I use and want (not all distros have them, or if they do, they have different names in the repo). In fact, I took this annoyance so far, that last time I distro hopped, I went with a setup that I can emulate on any distro by just moving my config files, so whatever I use, everything stays the same.

As for Linus… his review is really biased to be honest. It’s understandable that a user who doesn’t know much about computers would install Linux and expect everything to work, but Linus knows better then this. He knew what he was getting into and it’s not like this is his first Linux experience, just that it’s the first time he tried running it as his daily driver. I applaud him for that and for taking the jump (but I’m “toxic,” I don’t really care what other people use, everyone should stick to what they know if they can, or use whatever is available to them if they can’t).

When I first heard Luke talking about issues with multi-monitor setup, I could swear that was a Cinnamon issue. I never seen multi-monitor setups acts that way and I went through a few dozen on different distros for people who daily drive Linux and it never happened. Fedora GNOME Shell (both Wayland and Xorg)? Fine. Ubuntu Unity 7? Fine. Ubuntu GNOME Shell (both Wayland and Xorg)? Fine. Ubuntu Mate? Fine. Kubuntu (Xorg)? A bit sketchy to be honest, but that’s probably something related to Ubuntu. My own setup with Fedora KDE Spin (Xorg)? Fine. Arch with LXQt+KWin (Xorg, also mine)? Fine. Arch KDE (Xorg)? Fine. Manjaro KDE with KWin_Wayland? Absolute trash, multi-monitor didn’t work on it. Obviously KWin_Wayland was and still is experimental, so no fault of its own that I tried multi-monitor and didn’t work. Fedora with Sway (sway is Wayland only)? Fine. Void with Sway? Fine. Void with JWM? Fine. Fedora with JWM? Fine. The list goes on.

Outside of some very rare circumstances, multi-monitor setup works in Linux and so does plug-and-playing monitors. I understand that Luke wanted to keep using what he knows and I applaud him for that, even though I have beef with the Cinnamon DE for the small time that I used it (not to mention Ubuntu and forks of it, I strongly believe LMDE is a step in the right direction).

Talking about something public from the WAN Show:

About Dolphin vs Nautilus that Linus talked about. I am biased towards Dolphin, because I used it extensively, but that’s not because I didn’t try to use Nautilus, but because Nautilus UX is terrible from my perspective. When you start typing the name of the files, it shouldn’t just start applying filters, that’s what CTRL+F or the search bar is for. Dolphin, PCManFM/-Qt and many other FMs got it right, why can’t Nautilus drop that stupid search on typing? Then Linus criticized Dolphin for a “feature” that is lacking in it, which is opening Dolphin as root. Nemo can be opened as root and I find it as a terrible thing, even with all the red bars and warning signs around it. You should not need to use a FM to open files required by root, this should not be allowed. I understand that this is a Linux UX problem and I understand why Linus brought it out. I am not saying this is not a problem, what I’m saying is that his workaround shouldn’t exist and the underlying issue should be resolved. There is no reason for some programs to require root access and in fact, no programs should unless they have something to do with the system. If they cannot install themselves in the /usr/bin path, because the folder is owned by root, then don’t install yourself in /usr/bin, install yourself in a bin folder inside the users’ home directory.

I don’t remember what else he was talking about, something about mounting remote locations I think IIRC, which Dolphin can do. But he kept trashing Dolphin and other programs and he has the audacity of criticizing Linux users for doing the same thing that he did. I say that’s really hypocritical of him. And just because I call him a hypocrite, that doesn’t mean I want people to boo him and criticize him because of my criticism, that’s on you. Don’t attack Linus because you read this comment addressed at his character, that’s a brainlet thing to do.

Regarding him borking his DE. I don’t know how that is even possible, but it kinda shows the dangerous bloat that is happening in Linux. I doubt sway, dwm, jwm and even LXQt and probably XFCE would have crashed when Linus was trying to install Steam. But this should be a lesson for people who do CLI messages addressed at end-users: make them pay attention! Something like:

##########################################
##########################################
###                                    ###
###                                    ###
###              WARNING !!!           ###
###      DRAGONS AHEAD! READ THIS      ###
###              CAREFULLY             ###
###                                    ###
###                                    ###
##########################################
##########################################

This way, you attract attention and remove the verbosity from the package managers output. This way, probably even people like Linus would take his time to read. And keep the messages short. And then, just to make sure, as the user 3 times:

  • You may break your system, are you sure you want to do this (y/n)?
  • Did you carefully read the message above and understand what you are doing (y/n)?
  • If you are sure about this, type: “Yes, do as I say.”

Furthermore, Linus is expecting things to be “intuitive,” but what does intuitive even mean? It’s a term filled with subjectiveness of the past experiences. You always have to read a manual when you are trying to use something you don’t know anything about. If you put an all-life Windows user on a Macbook and he says “it’s not intuitive to use, because I cannot run this .exe file I download from office365” then you would obviously try to correct his mistake and especially his attitude towards how to use a thing he doesn’t know. Linus is approaching Linux just like someone who would try to install an .exe program on an iPhone. Expecting to “know it all” and then get mad because things don’t work as you expect is not a healthy approach to anything in life that you have no knowledge of. And it’s this exact attitude that keeps users from being able to switch to any operating systems and even change life habits for the better.

Again, reiterating what I said above, don’t attack Linus because you read this comment addressed at his character. This is my criticism of him and I do not want anyone to throw shade at him and spam him with messages or even worse. And frankly, that’s not how you change people, people need to want to change.

And again, I couldn’t care less what Linus is using, I can almost guarantee he’ll move back to Windows, because that’s what he knows and is good at, I have no issue with that. I welcome his criticism of the Linux UX, but I also correct what things are invalid, because of fundamental architectural designs of the OS. You don’t have to be a programmer to know you should never need root privileges.


And regarding

I disagree. This is an open forum related to tech discussions. The reason why I love this small community is that we are open to discussing anything, including other youtube channels and different perspectives, or alternatives, in the pursuit of knowledge. I think Wendell can agree that the Level1Techs is not about becoming a brand and making money, but about improving knowledge.

We talk about lots of stuff, including things we see on STH, LTT, HC, GN, HU, Jeff Geerling, Craft Computing, Novaspirit Tech and more that may or may not watch.

3 Likes

I saw this video earlier today and I think it was just really bad luck on Linus’ part of what happened :frowning_face: but if i’m being honest if I had just done a fresh install of a new OS and saw that message, I would have probably run it just to see what happened and write it off as a learning experience. Obviously, not so good if you had an OS that was fully set up to the way you want :grimacing:.

Imo I think Pop OS is great. I use it as a daily driver for work and have previously installed it on a system to run Steam and Proton and had nothing but a good experience. It has also been good to see that System76 have addressed this issue so quick and put in an extra fail safe, just show’s to me that they care.

I hope this experience doesn’t deter people to what is a really good OS.

A bit sad for the Linus part of the challenge. Not only did he try installing steam right away (without even updating, EVEN though Pop_OS was loading / checking for packages while he did it :unamused: Also most likely wouldn’t have happened on the LTS release of Pop_OS.)

Luke on the other hand, respected the update process before trying to install programs / apps and probably should have shared that part with Linus, but no idea if it’s ‘allowed’ or not.

Anyway nice to see them re-visit Linux again! :+1:

If you need to upgrade before installing new packages, the package manager should force you to do this.

13 Likes

I know just enough linux to be dangerous.

When I decided to YOLO and go linux on my main system…

Ubuntu because of its reputation for being beginner friendly and being the top player… and LTS because no one has time for bugs.

My own big take away from fiddling around there was - 1. ZFS is still beta on Ubuntu and STEAM sometimes disagrees. 2. Most things work with minimal effort. 3. Some bugs are just going to be there. That’s OK.

I haven’t tried to do everything Linus/Luke have though. I still have things to eventually fix… that’s a problem for future me.

It should, and if you read. It WAS doing that, (in the background) If you hastely try to install something when it’s doing that, it can break the updating process and possibly lead to broken packages aswell. Breaking the entire install for new users that don’t know how to fix broken packages etc.

If you meant it should have a UI warning with steps-to-run or an update manager warning, it also has that… With warning about updates. Although not as fast, takes about 20-30 sec or more lol

Which it of course should not. Taking 10+ sec or more for an updating process is way too long anyway for a new install. Instead, supporting a fast update process for a new install is on Pop_OS devs to fix that. It can definetly be done way faster. Even Linux Mint doesn’t take a quarter of the time, to warn about updates. After a new installation.

Also: If you don’t believe it was updating in the background. Feel free to install Pop_OS yourself. Then run htop or something similar as to see what’s going on in the system. There you will find the elementary.app (thanks to elementary devs) which is what Pop_Shop is based upon and named after.

You don’t necessarily need to upgrade, but it is really good practice to do so, especially if you haven’t upgraded in a while. The package manager should behave like this IMO:

$ apt install xyz
 You have not upgraded your packages in a while. It is highly recommended
that you do upgrade before continuing. Would you like to check for
upgrades now? [Y]
[...]
The following packages are available for upgrades, would you want to 
upgrade them? [Y]
[...] 
Packages upgraded. Installing package xyz...

This leaves the door open for those few times when you actually want it to NOT upgrade, while being more friendly to everyone else. I disagree with forcing an upgrade though.

6 Likes

ZFS has very specific needs that your desktop computer probably cannot satisfy (mainly heavy RAM usage). On desktop you are probably better off with Ext4, unless you really know what you are doing. You have been fairly warned. :slight_smile:

Dpkg has a lock that prevents multiple operations from happening at once. If it were in the middle of updates it would have bailed with an “unable to obtain exclusive lock” error.

3 Likes

https://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html

This article is actually a very interesting read.

For me, I consider the graphics APIs , X11 and Wayland as a major problem that many other problems stem from. Also, the lack of proper standards (insert a xcd comic about making new standards).
A problem that only(hopefully not) a single large corproation can solve.

Also, as a macro user. A lack of a proper way to interrupt key-presses is a major deal-breaker for me. autokey is whilst ambitious is not good enough.
And each program has its own way of capturing input.(and probably other stuff too).

Sadly, when I use desktop linux I feel like I’m using a bone-less system. Yes not even a just backbone-less system…

1 Like

Ok, so how stable do you think Dpkg or any other package is on a first install. Without access to updates? Do u think or know if Dpkg or other packages behaves as they should?

That depends on release date, and if it’s not recent. Expecting packages to be 0-day ready for any linux distro is ludicrous. That’s why an UPDATED LTS version, would be recommended and it’s also the way Luke went. That’s super stable when kept updated…