Lossless Vs Lossy (ABX Comparator)

you could of removed a large portion of your comment and have it as simple helpful information and suggestions to get the most out of our audio

Did that many months ago on the forum, didn't work, people need the extra push... also I wouldn't have posted all of this so-called patronising crap if people would have researched it and tried it when I posted it in the first place a long time ago. I always get in trouble on the forum for pushing too hard, but I can live with that, it's NOTHING in comparison to the criticism Logan puts up with voluntarily for his provocations to make people think, and I don't have as much style as Logan, I put it like a peasant, that saves me from comments from people that are not interested in the first place, they don't even feel like it's worth replying, that is, if they even read my long posts, so I'm perfectly fine with the way it is.

Yeah, either post the results to an ABX test where you can tell the difference between the two or your point is invalid.  If it's so easy for you to do, then I don't see why you're stalling so much.

 

Then why the hell worry about ABX testing of sound formats if telling the difference in  your audio is taking things a bit far?


Re-sampling changes the sound. Up-sampling can subtract from sound quality (objectively & subjectively). Please disregard whatever you have read concerning up-sampling. If you care enough about your audio to ABX formats, then it should logically follow that you care enough about your audio to be well informed about re-sampling as well.


Experiment with those foobar re-sampling plugins at various qualities please. If you dont hear a difference, that is fine with me, but saying that because you don't notice it or it isn't important enough for you is not justification for making such claims as 'upsampling doesn't matter'.


Personally, I do up-sample my audio at times and other times I don't. There is a trade off in what it is that I am hearing at each time and there is a specific plugin & quality that I use. The 'quality' that I use is also not the highest one because it actually detracts from the audible quality I hear. (I can more objectively describe the sound if you like, but this is just a personal anecdote)

 
 
 

I want to personally that Zoltan for the description of the windows audio stack and also william123098 for This Post.


If your audio is important enough to ABX than it is probably important enough to remove the weak Windoze link from your sound chain.

 
 
 

Foobar is a "fork" of winamp.  It has nothing to do with XMMS or Audacious.

There's nothing wrong with the windows audio stack as long as your sampling rate matches the audio device's output sampling rate in windows XP and earlier, as the actual issue is with the earlier audio stack's re-sampling bug.  Windows Vista and later fixes this, so that whole argument about the windows stack is moot at this point.

Linux's pulseaudio was a steaming pile of bugs until just recently, and still it's no better than the windows mixer on a good day.  I run Linux on all my servers but even I know it's limits:

http://yokozar.org/blog/content/linuxaudio.png

 

 

Short version:

Simple analogy: you have a high quality audio source - say your own recorded music at sampled at 24bit/96KHz playing your favorite music instrument. You KNOW how that sounds when you recorded it back in the studio. Then you made an MP3 file off that recording and you brought both files home. Here's my point (pardon me the extremities ): you played BOTH files through 5 bucks god awful Chinese counterfeited Sony-branded tiny speakers. Can you hear a difference?

Long version:

First of all, I don't use Windows, I'm done with Windows. Second of all - I've done the test with my friends, written tests. We spend the whole day playing with my audio gear. We concluded at that time that MP3 were BAD, and that came from 7 people - on written test, with blinds and all (both on the person and on the audio gear were blinded so no one can cheat). The person who made the test (the one which renames the files) and the one who's executing the test (the one who plays the files) are two different person, and each brought their own files, which we all check that those are indeed uncompressed and compressed, simply by looking at it's spectrogram (and listening it, making sure that both are the same music ofc :) ).

The difference was night and day. Once again, I don't mean to brag - but please, use better gear. I don't mean to brag, but the speakers that I use is listed at $3750 each @vintageking.com, not to mention the DAC. Do not use headphones simply because it's way inferior than loudspeakers (specifically calibrated studio monitors). Someone on the forum said to me that the effect on the speaker driver in headphones are doppler effect or something, not comb filtering - I stand corrected. My point still stands that headphones can't produce signal as accurate loudspeakers simply because it only has very tiny (and most of the time, single full range driver). High frequency needs a very stiff and light media/cone/plate to vibrate accurately. If the same media/cone/plate is vibrating both at - say 90Hz - and at the same time, parts of it is vibrating at 12KHz, the sound coming off that media/cone/plate won't be as accurate compared to a separate drivers (two or three ways better in this sense, that is IF it's designed properly).

In my short 10 years in audio (especially PC audio, I did record my own music back then - when I was in Windows - for my own private consumption), my conclusion for now is : use studio monitors, it's cheaper and more accurate. Those speakers are merciless in sense that if there's something WRONG with the sound/music, you WILL HEAR IT. Some studio monitors are more brutally honest compared to other studio monitors, but at the end of the day - you can't expect to get good results when you use low-end-uncalibrated gears. Proper studio monitors are pre-calibrated from the factory, in an anechoic chamber down to several dB fluctuations in all frequency band. If you have the money, use ADAM Audio's SX series studio monitors. If you have A LOT of money, use Barefoot sound's studio monitors. These speakers ARE MADE to show you your music/sound in (sometimes brutally) honest way.

As I said in my previous comment, use better gear. Go get a loan on ADAM Audio studio monitors, preferably A7X, it's cheap enough - then do your ABX testing to your self using that studio monitor. If you can, get RME's Audio Interface while you're at it (preferably the Fireface UFX), simply because the Audio Interface (the source) is A HUGE FACTOR for you to be able to hear ANY DIFFERENCE. You can't expect to not hear a difference in a headphone connected to your on-board audio out on your laptop, compared to 15K worth of (some) professionally calibrated Audio equipment (the speakers), and higher quality of analog output stage of higher end Audio Interface (or DAC). The difference is NIGHT and DAY.

Go get better equipment, then do the ABX test.

zzz2496

A HUGE NOTE from me: DO NOT forget that the weakest link on this whole Audio chain is the speaker drivers. We are listening to the vibrating cone/plate of the speaker drivers. If you forgot to factor that, forget the Lossless vs Lossy comparison, IF your speaker drivers CANNOT perfectly recreate the waveform stored in your Lossless or Lossy files - that my friend, is THE END.

zzz2496

This is a massive point I can't stress enough, that's why I originally said to post as much detail about your setup as possible. If you say you can hear the difference in lossless post your audio equipment. Except for zoltan as he's claiming you don't need good speakers to hear a difference.

Yup, you don't even need all the audio hardware to clearly hear the difference, all you need is to not use Windows.

What I'm trying to find out is how much money would I have to spend on speakers to hear the difference, if there is still no difference and is it worth it after spending large amounts of money.

I believe it's sarcasm embedded within the comment ;)

Btw Cousie G, have you listened to ADAM Audio studio monitors yet? Do you live anywhere near music store that sells ADAM Audio studio monitors? If you do, you MUST have a listen on ADAM's A7X, that speaker opens my world, in not so subtle way. Just a thought...

zzz2496 

I do live in a metro area but I've yet to find a proper HiFi enthusiast store :( So atm I've had to really heavily rely on reviews and opions on the internet which isn't the best if you want to tailer a set up for yourself

Theres probably a store hidden around somewhere though... Hopefuly

ABX testing is not new and the idea that most people can't tell the difference between FLAC and MP3 is also not new. It's been replicated quite often in Hydrogenaudio forums. I myself have done FLAC abxing and I failed.

But you know what? I don't care. I still want FLAC. Because I want to collect FLAC and it makes me happy. 

 

I think many people are emotionally invested in the idea of better audio and golden ears so they try to justify it any way they can. I see this kind of situation all the time (outside of audio world I mean).

Test was done on Asus STX Essence with Rokit 6 G2 monitors.