Linux News #3 - Who Says Linux Doesn't Have Games!

I'd disagree with this to some extent. I'd agree Photoshop for example does more in more areas better than a single free software application, but I'd disagree that it does certain things better.

Krita for example is arguably a better painting programe than Photoshop. A lot of it is subjective though, both krita and Photoshop do painting well and people prefer what they prefer, but I'd argue that it's incorrect today to suggest Photoshop is a better painting programe.

On the past few posts , if it's on topic and people are respectful I've no issue having a indepth discussion on anything. But I'd suggest you read and think about replies before replying. A lot of people on the forum reply without thinking of the poster because they think their opinion is the correct one (if it is or not).

And I'd agree that more software support on Linux the better. I think a lot of the time though people complain that free software isn't as good, but so nothing about it. People should get more involved, if you think there software that needs improved, help, there's always something to do and Linux is far more community involved. Even if we do argue a lot.

2 Likes

For painting I don't know, I can't draw for my life. But for graphic design Photoshop is far better.

And I did read the earlier replies, if I didn't how would I know what they were talking about? This just didn't seem like the place for it but as I said apparently that was incorrect.

Can be wildly implemented.
Photoshop is one of the dozen tools to achieve that.
Usually its just what you can learn easy and where you can find the best tutorials for.
I think the best graphic design still comes from people using zbrush, but that probably because it is made by designers that is are perfectionistic and it attracts perfections that love detail.

I can give you an example that this is not always true though, from my own company.

We almost never do 16-bit color production, so we don't need that per se.

We do a lot of comps and "Freistellungen" (cutouts?), it's an operation that is required for 75 % of the output for print we produce. We mostly produce for web (no 16 bit colour anyway with most of the audience) and for really big advertising posters, up to 25 meter wide, some even 40 m wide.

The image production department ("art department"?) is managed by my wife. She used to hang on to Adobe products for the longest time, and she has had an art education. The problem was that she and the other employees of that department, were cutting out and compositing like it's taught in college, with the pen tool and a lot of patience and a lot of layers and a lot of time and a lot of degeneration of quality because of the enormous post-production. ProPhotoRGB and 16 bit were necessary, I used to shoot everything on a medium format digital camera to even have a good enough file to have an acceptable end result.

That's how pretty much everybody does it, and that's fine, but that's not a useful way to make money. The image production department was not making any money, and was not offering a competitive advantage, whereas all other departments were doing really well. The art department also was expensive, because Adobe software cannot access network attached storage like open source software, costs a lot of money on licenses, and has a lot of problems with funky updates and stuff like that, so the downtime is considerable. Add to that the huge downtime of the Windows PC's this software was running on, and it was a complete mess. Everyone else had been using open source software for years. I myself switched definitively to open source software long ago in university, back in 1996.

In 2012, I got the assignment of doing a large campaign, and for the first time, there would be the need to immediately respond with advertising material to themes that would pop up on social media... everything was super last minute, reaction time was crucial.

As a consequence, I shot small sensor cameras ("full frame", the small sensor size, not the much larger medium format sensors), because there were a lot of run-an-gun photos necessary to really connect with the actual super hot topics in social media, and medium format is really unwieldy for reportage-style shooting. This caused a drop in original quality of the files, enough to cause a drastic drop in post-production output quality after Photoshop.

An extra problem was the bottleneck in the art department. It was crucial to produce results in only a couple of hours, and the art department was taking 90% of the time budget, and everybody was unhappy and the entire assignment was very stressful.

To gain some original image quality, I processed the raw files in digikam manually, which was not really a time difference compared to the art departments Adobe Camera Bridge processing, but the image quality was noticeably much much higher. But the Photoshop bottleneck made me consider refusing assignments like that in the future.

Back in 2013, I reinvested in a completely new future-orientated platform for compute performance. Adobe software could not take advantage of that, it can't even take advantage of the multiple threads within the CPU of the system it is running on, let alone use shared resources. For everyone else though, this made a lot of sense, for video production, for development, for modelling, for simulations and for research projects.

I gave the art department a deadline to switch to open source software in 3 months, and sent them to full open source software training. Two people left because they didn't want to learn anything, the entire art department was not happy, but my wife runs the department and it was clear to her that they were not making any money there.

Even when the people came back from extensive training, they still didn't work efficiently, there was little difference between GIMP and Photoshop, in fact there was none, not in image quality and not in speed.
Until I made a challenge that the software developers and sysadmins in the company could outperform the art department in cutting out and compositing. Turns out that they could actually do the same work an art department employee did in 2 and a half hours, in less than 4 minutes with GIMP. The reason is that GIMP has much more evolved mathematical functionality than Photoshop. You simply don't have to cut out people with pen tools any more, you can do it very simply with preconfigured scripts and some simple logic. Photoshop doesn't have that functionality, you can simulate it, but it takes a really long time and several consecutive blurring operations that cost an enormous amount of time and deteriorate the image quality considerably.

Now the art department is also competitive, and the employees have learned how to make intelligent use of the GIMP, they use linux computers since 2014, so there is no system breakage anymore, they can work on the network with all the benefits, including access to the processing power of the ARM array, etc... everybody's much more happy.

And that's the mistake a lot of people make: they think the GIMP is a clone, a copy of Photoshop, and that it is not a very good copy or that a lot of functionality is missing. No, the GIMP is a very long running open source project, and a lot of people invested a lot of thinking into the functionality of the GIMP. In fact, probably more intellectual assets were invested in the GIMP than in Adobe Photoshop. As a consequnce, the GIMP has a lot of "level Asian" functionality in comparison to Photoshop. Art people don't like math and they don't like change and they don't like other people (especially nerds) telling them what to do, and they like brands..., yeah yeah, but companies like efficiency and profit, so art people have to learn how to become profitable, how to gain that competitive advantage.

In business, standing still is being left behind. Adobe and Microsoft have been practically standing still for 20 years. Of course it's convenient to not have to learn anything. that convenience also costs all profit and the little operational profit from the use of the Adobe and Microsoft products there is, is then shared with Adobe and Microsoft.... that is not progress, that is not good business, that is not economical, that is not intelligent.

What IS intelligent and good business and efficient, is using open source software, training people intelligently, so that they actually understand what is going on behind the GUI, so that they can - if they want - help in improving the products even further for the benefit of everyone.

5 Likes

I find that a lot of the basic functions I need (blending, shapes, layers, cropping, alpha channel control) are far more complicated to use in GIMP. I'd love to use it more so I don't have use a Windows VM but for my workflow Photoshop is far faster.

Linux desperately needs a good video editor. Light works is really the only one but it has a massive learning curve and doesnt work like a typical linear editor.

Overall Foss vs proprietary I know we can all agree that if Adobe brought CC over to Linux, marketshare would go from 2% to like 5% overnight. Which would also encourage a flood of other great windows/Mac programs to come to Linux.

1 Like

Well to each their own, everyone should use what he/she prefers.

Lightworks has quickly become the default video editor for the high budget video/movie industry, like Krita has very quickly become the standard software for illustrators. But these industries are among the last industries to switch to open source software for their means of production. Other industries had switched a long time ago, for a lot of various reasons. Some industries have switched to open source software and GNU/Linux as default operating system so long ago, that the main commercial tools for those industries, are developed solely for GNU/Linux, e.g. the military, law enforcement, education, science, engineering, etc...

one example is the very popular statistical data analysis based crime predication tool that modern police forces use to guide their deployment with great effectiveness. This tool is only developed to be run with tools that only exist in Linux, and the tool itself only runs on Linux machines. Police forces that want to use this tool, have to use Linux, or they can forget it. The developers don't want to offer it on another platform, because too little of their client base uses anything else but Linux.

another example is the third world, the one laptop per child project. Basically hundreds of thousands of laptops have been distributed in the third world for children to learn computing. These children have learned computing on devices with open source software, basically with Fedora on it. This is happening while at the same time, American children are kept in the dark about modern computing by selling them out to "common criteria sponsors" like Microsoft. Not that it makes any difference in the end, because the entire younger generation uses Android devices, and hacks the living daylights out of those, to the point where there are thousands of alternative ROM's, exponentially more than there are linux distros for PC'S, even though it's essentially the same thing.

I myself have to admit that for me, the best photo editor on the market today, is Snapseed for Android. Lightroom's last interesting version was 3.6 (back then it also cost 400 bucks because it was good software, now it's pretty much sales bin fremiumware because it can't hold a candle to Darktable, Digikam, Capture One, etc...), then definitely Darktable, but since Snapseed 2.0, I like Snapseed the best for light photo editing (by far the most common kind of photo editing for me, others differ in their methods), Digikam for RAW development is unbeatable, and Darktable as full-featured (has about twice the features of Lightroom CC) desktop photo editor.

De facto, the dice has been thrown a long time ago, the train has left the station a long time ago, and there is no turning back whatever amounts of wishful thinking and market manipulation Microsoft and Adobe perform.

Some people still think that there is a fight going on between commercial software and open source software on the x86 desktop platform, but that's just not true... because of the strength of the Wintel alliance, the lack of fight to fight with open source software has almost driven the x86 desktop market into suicide. If it weren't for Chromebooks (running Gentoo of all distros, the irony right?) throwing them a line, they would have drowned already, it's not a matter of preventing them from jumping off that bridge, they've been in the water with bridge and all for a really long time. Every single day, almost two million Linux-powered non-x86 computing devices are bought and fired up... the PC market was never this big... the personal computing devices market never woke up before Linux gave it the opportunity to do so! Open source software literally brought personal computing and communications to the entire world, and leveled the playing field... the kid of the president of the USA uses a similar device with similar software as a poor kid in some slum in Nigeria... they use the same software, connect over the same TCP sockets... how can you argue with that, with the huge scale of that, the enormous opportunity the world has gotten because of open source software... these kids can hack the crap out of those devices, and there is nothing that can stop them, because the software that these are running on, is basically property of mankind without any exception or limitation whatsoever, it's free for everyone to do with what they feel like, it's true equal opportunity in every aspect. How can anyone argue that this software is not as good as this or that limited use branded cloakware/handicapware product marketed and sold to people with deep pockets... in that light, a small team of software developers from Lübeck in Germany, under the name of Nik Software, who were developing commercial plug-ins for Nikon and Adobe, grabbed the opportunity of open source, developed Snapseed, threw it onto the market for free... and no they didn't go hungry and bankrupt, they got bought for good money by Google... and suddenly found themselves being the developers of the most used commercial advanced photo editing solution in the entire world...

1 Like

At work I use waaay more vendor specific software for programming hardware. And of course its all windows based, and it should go without saying its all glitchy as hell.

For personal creative use there are more options on windows. I've spent several hours in gimp where I could have been finished in Photoshop in 30min. The software is feature incomplete and has some outright stupid ui choices. A mashup of krita and gimp would probably be a closer competitor to PS.

PS is the final brawl for me totally abandoning windows. I've given up most of my games and some cutting edge hardware for freedom on Linux. Its nearly there.

Also winamp.

1 Like

I mean thats all well and good, but sometimes its not about what you want to use.

Some people need to use adobe, MS word, or other non free software because their job requires it.

If you, bob, jill, and sue all need to work on the same project, then you need to be able to save your project files in the same format.

If you are using lightworks while everyone else is using adobe premiere, then you will not be able to open their project files and they will not be able to open your project files.

It just plain doesn't work. Until such a time comes that open source and closed source software can all play in the same sand box, linux will continue to sit at 2%.

1 Like

Lol, you won't understand objective data, that's ok with me. If you earn well working in the old ways, that's great. If the old ways offer you job security, that's super.
Odds are really high though that you won't be able to make a full career on proprietary software lol... but everyone interprets objective data like he/she wants... people that take Steam gaming rig percentages as representative for the enterprise world, are making a big mistake in my opinion though.
The reality is that the hacker community, the guys that are always on the bleeding edge of advancement, are moving on from linux as single operating system of choice (with the thousands of distros within that), and are using combinations of all kinds of gear, linux and BSD, complex constructs to plug as many holes as possible. They're communicating through mesh networks, they're not going straight on the Internet, ever, etc...
The world is in constant advancement, there is never a status quo. The mere fact that certain software solutions can survive twenty plus years without major technological advancements, is a sign that the economy is shrinking. It's the same thing as Intel CPU's skipping tics and tocs and extending cycles. History learns that when that happens, it's time to jump ship or go under with it...

2 Likes

The problem with GNU / Linux not being on everyone's desktop is the same thing what makes it great.. Choice and options..

Also it's too fragmented. Want to see Linux take over? Wait for Google to drop Andromeda.

1 Like

The problem with open source is that there is no marketing, there is only the word of mouth and social interactions to spread it. For an entire generation that used to share software on diskettes and didn't have cars or cellphones, that was never a problem...

Sad part it already did take over the world. We just slowly giving it up because we ain't aware enough of it's potential.

1 Like

not that there's much wrong with it, but this discussion will always be circular. you have one group claiming Linux NEEDS more exposure and have a bit of an evangelise about it to their peers. then you have the other group that either can't be arsed to switch entirely because X program doesn't work or runs like it's 1996 in Wine, or enjoy Windows exclusives and AAA games that they know will run on Windows, or aren't as advanced in their computer knowledge [ie in every New toLinux discussion there's always someone decrying having to use the terminal] to do so.

like most things in life, i prefer moderation and using the best tool for the job at the time, as many here have said. i use Linux on my laptop, but i feel i would be uncomfortable with making the switch entirely. it's not that i'm "not aware" enough to do so, i don't want to. it's not conducive to my situation.

would i like Linux to be big? i don't know. there's a rebellion factor in it. a lot of people here use Linux in part as a fuck you to Microsoft, because they're displeased with many things that they've done and would rather take the hit in accessibility and game releases than support Microsoft, which is perfectly valid. but if those who think Linux MUST GROW and are dead set on more people using it, allow me to put forward a scenario.

right now, there's rumblings whenever Windows only software is pressured upon either students or office workers. people don't like it and will generally have a moan about being forced to used Windows software. all of us will generally agree that using whatever you feel comfortable with is best, and will/do support those people in their gripes. but what if you pressured Linux software on students, let's say. you can give them the spiel six times a week about how Windows is evil and Apple is Satan, but you're going to have people piling into lectures and classes with Windows and Mac computers who LIKE Windows and Mac. do you fail them for using what they're comfortable with because you think Linux is superior? do you at least single them out to the class and mock their silly proprietary software?

2 Likes

Using Adobe is not the old ways. Use the right tool for the job, simple as that. If it takes me 5 min to separate alpha channels in Photoshop because of its great layer control vs 30 min in gimp then the better choice is Photoshop.

Same the other way around. I could remote desktop into a server to start a service, but I prefer ssh much more. Others might want to do it in the GUI but it is faster for me to do it as a command.

Use the best tool for your situation.

As for not being able to make a career out of proprietary software; apparently Microsoft, Apple, Google, Nvidia, Intel, and thousands of others can't make a living.

If you mean more for the end user then look at every YouTuber. I can bet that 85% use Adobe premiere and they make a happy living off of it.

Proprietary software is not the enemy (unless you are RMS), it's the company behind it that is important.

We should encourage Linux support in any capacity. Proprietary or Foss, all of it is good. Linux is about choice and if I choose to use the proprietary Nvidia driver because it is objectively better than nouveau, I have that choice. If I want to support open source or another brand then I can buy AMD, simple as that.

This whole discussion looks like something you would see on stallman.org where proprietary is aparently born of Satan himself.

Little news update.

Total war: warhammer is releasing on 22nd Nov

:D

2 Likes

He he, I agree with your sentiment, but it's good to see Zoltan stimulating debate on the forums again. His mega posts often provide food for thought, even if I disagree with some of the content.

Right now most large vendors are realising that a hybrid approach to Open Source and Proprietary is a useful business model. They are all at it - RedHat, Microsoft, Oracle, FaceBook, Google, IBM etc etc. I'm seeing it in action all the time working on Data Analytics projects for large corps. We might build out the initial platform using CentOS and Open R but once the Data Scientists are ready for Production or need better scalability using the Proprietary extensions gives us that and means we put real money into their R&D, some of which will go back into the Open Source projects via Red Hat and Microsoft. Sometimes the project will move to use only propretary software...

...The Azure Platform now has some of the best data analytics solutions baked right in, they really are ahead of AWS at the moment. Granted, Microsoft might only be doing a $0.8 Billion revenue in Azure vs. AWS' $3.2 Billion per quarter but that is enough for Microsoft to fund what probably is the best end-to-end cloud platform for large corportations. This is all built on a mis-mash of licence types and software that originated in so many different places. To say Proprietary is dead, is IMO completely, and unfortunately, wrong.

Anyhow, I think most companies view the Proprietary vs. FOSS as a dead argument, the money they are chasing now is about where you execute your workloads - most IT vendors now have some sort of SaaS/PaaS/IaaS solution to sell you whether its on their cloud, hosted in your own data-centre, or most likely both.

To chime in, a lot of big companies such as The Foundry, Autodesk already have their production 3D, Texture Painting and Compositors/Video Editors already on Linux, and even some of that software originated from Linux only. The development behind Mari shows that, it's pretty interesting as VFX studios favor Linux (Usually Red Hat) for their production Workstations and Back-end Server Render farms.

I can only speak from a 3D VFX/Game Dev point of view. However most pipelines in studios actually get exported into a central program that will handle the final export. This allows VFX studios, or game developers to use any software they wish, from Blender to Maya, Mudbox or MODO. It dose not matter what file format you export it as, as the central system such as: Fabric Engine for instance will take care of the rest; this goes for their own in-house software.

So in short, it mainly dose not matter what software you use on this front just as long as you can get the job done as there is other software to handle the "end game" export, so to speak.

I've always found it extremely strange that Adobe has not yet put their software onto Linux, even if it's just Red Hat to start with, as most software giants have done so for a very long time now, how I look at this though it'll only be a matter of time before a current software project will get some major funding, or another software will pop up and really start digging into the heels of Photoshop. I don't really see the need for something to compete with After Effects and the like unless you're doing very basic VFX effects. As NUKE STUDIO + combos such as Softimage and Maya are used to create the base effects, render. Then NUKE take care of the compositing stage.

2 Likes

hmm...Ok I have a week to finish 8 months worth of work to make it with no severe consequences.......Doable...

interesting that The Talos Principle is updating Cilkan and sticking to it. I remember the early days of Vulkan and Croteam had said while the game supported it, it will run worse than DX equivalent and likely not get supported or updates, Nice to see it is is actually progressing. I think the reasoning was that they were working on new Serious Sam games and will have a more full featured Vulkan roll-out and that it was difficult to shoe horn Vulkan into a pre-existing engine.

The results as you can see are really promising, consider the following

Vulkan support on MESA on AMD is experimental, they literally just put out the first release not that long ago
Vulkan support on The Talos Principle is in Beta as well its also not been out long.

Even with those two points, its still better than OpenGL.

We don't need to wait for Google, and shouldn't. We are already going towards a more standard base.

If we really want to encourage GNU/Linux on the desktop more we need to promote distributions that are following a common goal and set of base utilities.

We've standardised utilities, we've standardised the file system hierarchy, we've pretty much standardised the init and core systems (systemd), it looks like we're on the way to standardising package management (flatpak).

People can argue if those are good things or not, but its a simple fact that we need to work together and standardise the base of the operating system. Free Software is constantly being attacked even more so these days where we have the appearance of free software but are completely locked out from the hardware it runs on as more and more people are being convinced things like the GPL are "evil" and MIT / BSD are the way to go.

Sure.. there the way to go if you want companies to control the software you've made, why do you think Apple are so allergic to the GPL? Why are some of there software so old? and why are they trying to replace them with their own? The simple don't want to have to give the code back or give you the ability to use the hardware you own the way you want.

We've completely failed to show people why open libre code is important i think. And Its not like its easy, we're up against money, the credit of your code being used by some big company, people in it for "as long as they use it i don't care", compared to the people who write code because they want users to have protections and freedoms over their computing.

[rant over]

But your point, yes, fragmentation is an issue, but your suggestion waiting for Andromeda.. a "linux distro" that will almost certainly be incomparable with GNU/Linux, and will just further fragment things..

We really need to consolidate out positions, get people to stop their pet distro projects that no one uses and work to make better solutions.

Fedora Security.. is seriously a "spin" what a waste of time imo. Its at least not as big a waste as Ubuntus Flavours, as far as im aware the Fedora spins are just Fedora + DE + package set. But just put the package set as a group in the package manager rather than waste time making the spin, testing, distributing.

The whole flavour for every DE is just as insane (even more so), distros used to give you a choice at install (Fedora still does if you use the netinstall).

Korora.. Pointless. The whole wasted effort (imo!) is literally Fedora + a couple of repositories. RPMFusion is easy to enable its literally a few clicks. The Korora team could be much better spent pushing forward Fedora and RPMFusion instead.

This could go on and on, we waste so much of our resources. And some i get, people want to make programs to learn, or distros to learn, or want to try some new technology, or build some prototypes for things that might be better, theres nothing wrong with that, but if its reinventing the wheel and it doesnt actually bring anything to the table.. keep it as a learning exercise, shove it on github and use your new knowledge to help the better project.

[second rant over]

2 Likes