I don’t really know whose post this is supposed to be a reply to but…
I would agree with your point here. But there’s not really any data on whether it helps or hurts the project. I wouldn’t expect the people who consume that kind of tabloid media are the kind of person to interact with Linux at any level, albeit accidentally with Android or ChromeOS.
Remember that Linus’s “displays of toxic immaturaity (male has nothing to do with it)” only look the way they do because they’re viewed through a lense of bias. Linus is not North American, the culture of the U.S. and Canada are different from that of what he was raised in. His otherwise absurd remarks about retroactive abortion etc, may be less absurd to others. That being said; As long as Linus wants to seek this change for himself, I hope people would respect it. If he sees it as a problem with himself that he wants to try fixing, that should be his choice to make.
When it comes to snowflakes and grownups, I don’t know who the post was supposed to be a reply to but…
He should refuse to pander to ANYBODY grownup or snowflake or not, he should rather pander to the project itself. If a person, adult or child, writes good code they should be welcome to work on the project. If they can’t take potentially brutal criticisms with regards to their code quality, maybe there is somewhere else that would be a safer space for their contributions.
Does @ladotauko mean that upset about Linus taking a break, or the anger over the Contributor Covenant? I’ll reserve the bulk of my issues with the CoC for its designated thread, but I will say that my worry isn’t how the CoC will be used by the current power structure of the project, but how it could be used by less benevolent forces in the future.
I think the point of the CoC itself is less benevolent more thinktank. Like with many other things today, you must have black people in your projec tor its not a good project. Thats kind of the point of the document, and with that stupidity the projects afflicted by it will die very quickly.
Lets hope linus either slaps some people around or forks the project and abandons it. Everyone I’ve asked about what they think the new changes are going to bring say the same thing: SJW trigger wars over stupid blips of code that will destroy the linux kernel and serve no one for the better.
Lets hope for a fork, or my comment that I made on ask noah about ditching this shit and going to use amiga stuff instead is going to happen a lot sooner than I ever planned on. I refuse to use anything associated with this shit and will destroy every install the moment they fuck shit up.
Heh, maybe this is why linus needed a break, huh? So many idiots charging him on this shit.
And thats the exact problem with this sorta thinking with this CoC. Its exactly designed to cause catchouts like that even though it requires for “diversity” by force, which is kinda racist once applied.
Thats exactly worded as I want it to be. The hidea there is presented the same as the CoC dictates for linux in the future.
The idea is enforced diversity of gender, race, and sexual orientation.
I beleive Linus himself instituded the CoC before leaving. Maybe he really does need empathy coaching, because it wouldn’t take much to predict this kind of reaction.
I really disagree with this kind of reaction. I’ve read the response on LKML and people are being very reasonable. It seems there is a hope to address the issues with the CoC once Linus gets back. Jumping ship is a bad idea from my perspective, thats how these people rise to power; their detractors always just leave, without fighting back. Don’t let them replace you. The same goes for forks, if all of the detractors spread out across multiple forks that WILL eventually die, the main project will keep going forward with all of it’s power supplanted by undesirables. So far, I don’t think we have to worry about this happening; the real developers on the mailing list are very aware of the issues with the CoC.
It’s a real sign of the times when that could be called racist, let alone SUPER racist. Bless your soul you sweet summer child, if you think that even remotely lands on the scale of racism. @FaunCB shouldn’t have to self censor just because the words may hurt feelings. I do appreciate that you acknowledge that he may have meant it sarcastically, we really should assume the best intentions from people.
I think we can make a distinction between intentionally offending people, and not avoiding causing offence. On the topic of the thread, I think Linus’s departure is about him trying to find that distinction. That line however isn’t so clear for many people, the slippery slope lies where we stop assuming the best intentions of people; and attack everything as if it were offensive by design.
This isn’t really about racism or sexism or any other -ism, for most of us nerds anyway.
Some people believe being a dick is admirable and virtuous. They believe their god-given right to say whatever the hell they want should be sacrosanct even when it hurts people. They have thick skin themselves, and they figure everybody else should too.
Anyway, this is getting way too far into politics.
I think a bigger sign of the times is how separated everyone actually is from each other. The fact that anyone on this planet thinks I actually care enough about them to try and offend people is a god damned joke, and I’m confident I’m not the only one. I’m busy with my own shit and trying not to jump off a bridge, why would I care about some trigger tard on the net or in my supermarket?
We really need to ask ourselves where there is a line in the sand and what is the requirement to cross it, rather than ask people not to kick the sand so the line isn’t there. Its a god damned joke that anyone wants to enforce emulated diversity. ITs like reverse nazi-ism. Fucking stupid.
Course then I look at Europe and everyone trying to loook like they’re superior for having more refugee’s than everyone else and ignoring all the bad shit they are hauling in and I really do wonder when people are going to drop their superiority complexes and actually address the problems they are causing…
Though, I guess for now I’ll be called a racist and a homophobe and, alright, fine. But then I’ll learn to use it as a weapon against that shit. Maybe thats what Linus and Linux needs.
Retalliation doesn’t have to be a mirror effect either though.
Also:
This needs to be a main lesson in social studies in school. People seem to hate the idea of freedom and independance. And if that really is the case get out of my fucking country.
I don’t think this really has to be the case, but fundamentally people should try to affect change willingly upon themselves before endeavoring to change others. I would like to think that Linus has willingly decided to change himself.
There’s a vocal minority that believes that freedom from offence should be a right. We need to have a conversation in this country, maybe the world, about what constitutes a right. Maybe that should be a topic for a different thread though.
Anyway, I’m going to take off for now. Hope you guys aren’t too upset, I know these kinds of discussions can get quite heated; regardless of any of that I’ve quite enjoyed myself.
For someone too busy with shit to be offensive (or to do any background research whatsoever), you’ve got an awful lot of time invested in this thread being upset and offended by the decisions of the kernel developers, and making up/spreading conspiracy theories. It doesn’t even affect you.
See here’s the thing, I have time when I make it. I have to get up at 4 AM to do a 10 hr shift in a factory and I get home and sleep for 6 hours, but I still have time for podcasts in my day. And you know what? II’m going to trust the people who work in multiple projects and have seen the problems with this specific document, as well as the creator of the document, and have seen what the creator of the document has even admitted to what it was designed for, then take the angles of multiple users that I ask on telegram and on the email lists I’m a part of what they see as good, bad, neutral about the document and what can be improved, read some things on other projects that have DIFFERENT CoC’s (like gentoo vs freeBSD), and I come to a conclusion on my own. I think this CoC change is toxic for the kernel and I hate it. I will be pessimistic about it because others have seen this CoC document degrade projects and rip the communications down to autistic screeching from a few people and most of the users leave or just contribute less.
So no, I do have time in my day to research stuff, and I have the ability to come to my own conclusions. Do I think CoC’s in general are bad? No. Gentoo works bloody great with one. But seeing the people that abuse these documents that are EXCITED to jump on the kernel and their general attitudes, such as (at)CoralineAda on twitter and a few people that follow her, yeah, no, I’m not exactly excited about the stupidity that this document is capable of harboring.
If you think its a good thing, great! I’m glad for you! I think its a cancer. Differing opinions are good, its how conversation works. But to say this sorta shit doesn’t bother the end user is stupid if you haven’t seen what other projects have melted into. Start with the last Ask Noah episode for one person that talks about multiple projects and people, find other interviews, and base your own opinion. And when I get home I’ll be digging into the LKML site because A: I didn’t know it existed, and B: Theres more shit to read there.
And sadly, while we can all speculate what will happen, no one knows what will happen till Linus gets back. And in the mean time, more shit is going to fester in this tiny wound. And if Linus’ “social lessons” tell him to roll over for people like CoralineAda because thats what people do in the part of the world he’s from, and he stops listening to his gut instinct for whatever reason, the quality of the kernel goes down and shit starts to break. I’ll hope for the best, but I see stupidity leaking in anyways.
“people who consume that kind of tabloid media are the kind of person to interact with Linux at any level”
I’ve always found the notion that use of Linux is a sign of a superior human being to be silly. Rather like basing your self-esteem on condemnation of others because you think you bought a better toaster.
" Linus is not North American, the culture of the U.S. and Canada are different from that of what he was raised in."
Torvalds is a middle-aged adult who has lived in North America for decades. He is quite fluent in English. This notion that he gets a pass because Finns happily verbally abuse each other is bogus.
What this boils down to is this:
“Your patch sucks” --> Not abusive
“You suck” --> Abusive
It also sucks that a part of the community is using this as a moment to come to the defense of social toxicity that may a good fit for some rancid subreddits but has no place in any effort populated by responsible adult professionals.