How the war between AMD and Nividia is going on: my opinions

(inspired by rsilverblood)

I felt like I had to write this because in my opinion, AMD and Nividia are in a matter of war right now and they are the only ones that are in this war *, no extra forces to back themselves up. They have already finished setting the stages of and claimed their home land, and (was) going start the first major battle, UNTIL... you guessed it, litecoins.

I'll try to explain as much as possible, from the start. As far as my knowledge goes, Nvidia has been ahead of AMD in many ways, wether it be money, architecture, etc. But about a year ago, AMD was able to start their genius plan, mantle. It mostly likely started when AMD was able to get their apu into all 3 of the consoles. This allowed them to gain a large amount of "land" as previously mentioned. Then all of this was only building up to their developer summit, in which mantle was announced, a api that seemed too good to be true. Sadly after, it turned out it wasn't going to be nearly as exciting, since mantle was able to dig that deep into the consoles, it meant than ports aren't expected to be nearly that big of a proformance increase. I think AMD most likely had the biggest chance to literally crush Nvidia, and that was what it seemed like in the early days of the mantle announcement. I guess you could say that AND aroused their own fire without the help of Nvidia. But the thing is, I think never before were pc and console so close and similar, much less all controlled by a single manufacturer to decide. The console takes up a large amount of gaming "land", and at least half of gamers use consoles. But AMD messed up with mantle, which leads to Nvidia' s counterattack, SFF PC.

I, for one, never expected nvidia to try and win such a small piece of "land". I was sure that they were confident with just ruling the regular pc industry. But I guess with that big of an investment, they would be better off digging into new lands. They are really serious about this. This is most likely their main line of defense/attack. They teamed up with Steam so that steam os was created to go against consoles, and making drivers for Linux too. And even a small hint for everyone: the holiday bundles? They all have controller support. All 3 of them. That can't be a coincidence, right? They are really dead serious on their little small form factor pc, and they just won't settle with the pc gaming industry, they want ALL of the gaming industry.

litecoins are also an important role right now in the AMD industry, since many of you must have noticed that stores are all selling out of AMD cards since they do so well mining the coins and ACTUALLY breaking even and getting more money than the electric bill. This is causing the AMD cards to have their prices go flying up and thus, the entire graphics card industry is ripping people off for their money. Nvidia, whom just lowered their retail prices for all mid to high end cards, is most likely very delighted that they can still make so much money from AMD's success. It's a win win situation for AMD and Nvidia, but a lose lose situation for us consumers. How does it affect this comparison you might ask? Well, this is a matter of subject mainly because it I felt that for now, litecoins are causing crazy prices for all the graphics cards, therefore may price per proformance charts might go bonkers for some people, and therefore think that (x) company has a better value card than that of (y) company, which is as for now, not true.

* Intel was left out of this conversation because I feel that even though they did start to make better integrated graphics, it's going to take a while before they(and any integrated graphics, for that matter) can come close into the level even side by side to consoles. Sorry intel, maybe in ten years though!

And that concludes this post.

Nice, dude. I hadn't made a "GPU Wars" blog post in a while, but you seem to have picked up my slack. Nice one.

However, a few corrections to some of what you said, and a few other things that I would have added:

- BitCoin, not LiteCoin. Although BitCoin is very volatile, it's the reason why people are buying AMD graphics cards. People know much less about Litecoin, and even though it's much easier to mine right now (and it's value might go up just like BitCoin did), it's still an uncertainty as of right now.

- Mantle is Open. This will help AMD because now they can implement drivers across various operating systems, and since other manufacturers can use it, nVidia, Intel, Qualcomm and others might chose to use it. So yes, even mobile might use it in those tiny Snapdragon processors for mobile apps. This should help consolidate the fragmentation of video APIs.

- OpenCL allows AMD to have a way to guarantee builders, companies and customers that they won't lock you down into buying only their hardware - like a certain CUDA developer. *Cough cough, nVidia.* This is why it was used by Adobe and other companies for professional apps, and we might soon see this level of code optimization and parallelization coming to various other programs in order to make them more efficient and take better advantage of the hardware. This could include physics middleware (like Havok and PhysX, but in a version that isn't locked to CPU or a specific hardware vendor) for games, but it could also be used to accelerate the encoding or decoding of videos in formats such as H.265 and Google's own VP.8 encoding solution. If this does happen, and OpenCL becomes a means by which we standardize and parallelize coding (rather than using heat-monstruosities of single-threaded volcano cores), it could help consolidate the market and make programming, developing and code porting much easier, saving time and money for all parties, making it a win-win for consumers, companies and developers.

- The surge in AMD prices means that companies are trying to buy and sell as many of AMD's graphics cards as possible. Demand is exceeding supply. This means AMD can increase the charges per card to cash in. But they need to produce more cards. And this might also mean that now that AMD has seen how much they can earn by having OpenCL compute acceleration cards, AMD will probably step up production and investment of their single-GPU flagship cards. So AMD will probably remain very competitive in the high-end graphics card department for a long while. Meanwhile, at the hall of justice *wait, wait, something broke, let me fix it!* I mean, meanwhile at nVidia headquarters, they're trying to figure out how to get CUDA cores to perform just as well in OpenCL as they do in CUDA, since they don't want to drop support for a technology they were pushing onto everybody for so long. Now nVidia has to either change it's architecture, or drop CUDA, or find some compromise. Neither alternative seems too good. (This might mean nVidia might offer PhysX/APEX for AMD cards, if AMD can offer something in return, like TrueAudio or help getting Mantle to work.)

- SteamOS will help get the market heated up again. But it's also worth noting that right now both nVidia and AMD are lacking in driver quality and support. SteamOS first launched with support for nVidia GPUs *only*. This could be Valve's way of trying to get nVidia on-board on the whole SteamOS train, and maybe also putting some pressure on nVidia to step up their driver support and quality.

- nVidia might also try to step up their game and get their drivers ready for the latest Linus kernels.

- AMD will continue to make more money, but it's also worth noting that this drop in availability only happened now that new aftermarket coolers are about to launch, because of the BitCoin surge, and because of the holiday. In mid-January we should see if this trend continues or not. For right now, we can't be sure. However, given the volatility of BitCoin and the fact that ASIC devices are gobbling up all the BitCoins to the point that using GPUs to mine for BitCoins isn't nearly as easy or productive anymore might mean that this trend will be short-lived. We can't be sure yet, and alternative gold-mines comparable to BitCoin (maybe LiteCoin? it's my personal hunch) will spring up, and then the trend will continue to pick up pace. If so, AMD might end up being the "price premium" of graphics card, while nVidia might be the price/performance king. If so, it'll be an interesting turn of events. We'll see how it turns out. =)

(Keep up the good work, dude!)

mining...

I only have one thing to say about that...

the only people who made the real money during the gold rush were the people who sold the shovels (which in this case happens to be amd/nvidia)

If I didn't know better I would actually think that coin mining in general was invented by graphics cards companies :D... 

but then again, I am a paranoid / suspicious b*stard :P

At first, the people with shovels made money during the gold rush. Until people with excavators came along.

That's what ASIC devices did to BitCoin mining. Specialized equipment made specifically for one tool can end up doing the job more effectively. When it comes to these money-making devices, it might end up having a much larger impact on the impact of CryptoCurrency than many previously thought.

If we have ASIC devices for BitCoins, the same will probably happen for any type of future CryptoCurrency that is based on a single type of calculation. If a CryptoCurrency is made that uses many types of calculations so that specialized ASIC devices didn't work, than it would be more effective for PC miners. But if it's more profitable to do it with a home computer, large companies might buy several computers to try and gain profit by mining, which drives prices down so much that ordinary people might not be able to mine such CryptoCurrency effectively.

And eventually, companies might start mining any/every new kinds of CryptoCurrency early on, so that these kinds of CryptoCurrency might increase in value over time as an investment.

^^ exactly. The people who are very serious on mining and actually want to make a lot of money off of it are people who invest a lot of money ( Tons of ACIS Miners, as far as i know, at least $50,000 to make a living off of) and the people like us gamers don't nearly have even close to that kind of power and most of us wouldn't want to shell out that much money for an investment that might not have such a bright future, since there have been more and more cases of cryptocurrency robberies that appear. This is one of the main flaws and reasons there hasn't been too big of the population that actually want to make an investment to mine, but with that small amount of people that actually are serious, they get hardware so powerful that we gamers wouldn't be able to come close to at least in a few years, and by then the difficulty of the coins will become even harder.

On a side note....

talk about a war  http://www.3dmark.com/compare/3dm11/7688144/3dm11/7713603

enough said.

People aren't buying AMD cards for Bitcoin. Its for Litecoin. Everyone knows about it and there's a huge rush. You cant mine Bitcoin with GPUs anymore, the power consumption is higher than you would get with mining. 

That's what I said in my post...

But at 4k? And triple crossfire vs dual sli? Price per price my friend.

This comparison was done using the 700$ GTX 780 Ti, versus a 550$ R9 290X, at 1080p (which doesn't take advantage of the 384-bit bandwidth of the GTX 780 Ti, or the 512-bit bandwidth of the R9 290X).

It was unfair from the beginning. Not to begin if we mention that the GTX 780 Ti probably came with aftermarket coolers, while the R9 290X is only now beginning to sell with aftermarket coolers of any sort.

It's obviously unfair. Nobody buys an R9 290X or GTX 780 Ti to run at 1080p resolutions. As a general rule of thumb (well, more of a guideline of opposable thumbs really, but whatever), any person who is willing to spend X amount of dollars on a graphics card should probably spend at most the same amount on their monitor. There's no point in buying a 700$ graphics card on a 120$ monitor, or to buy a 120$ graphics card to run a 700$ monitor. Exceptions and specific cases excluded, for gaming it's generally advised to keep the investment of the graphics card and monitor close in terms of how much money you'll spend.

For example, R9 280X should be (but currently isn't) 299$, which is about the price of korean 1440p monitors (at least in the links provided by Logan). That's a good match of price and performance, and the extra resolutions makes up for not being able to run anti-aliasing (which, after all, is supposed to make up for the decreased quality of lower resolutions).

3DFx?

 

SteamOS isn't even out yet, nvidia and intel support is just something temporary, there are way worse problems with nvidia on linux than with AMD.

Err, what doesn't take bandwidth. Budget cards would be much faster if they had 256 bit bus. Just because a smaller resolution is no longer a limit doesn't mean displaying on a HD screen won't take advantage of the bandwidth.

You don't get decreased quality with lower resolutions (unless you don't run native of course, this wasn't prevalent in crt days), it really depends on pixel density and monitor size. Have you ever tried a 15" wuxga laptop? it looks amazing, and there's loads even better.

Do you really think benchmarks mean anything these days?

At this point in the game I am hoping for AMD to overproduce. If that happens, supply will pass demand and prices will plummet. Look at what happened with RAM. 

SteamOS IS out... sadly only in 1.00 alchemist and 1.01 alchemist_beta. But once it starts to pick up the trend in about a few months, it's gonna be just like chrome OS, very crappy at first, but then a threat to windows and os x.

Yes, look what happened to RAM. The prices went back up as people demanded more. AMD right now doesn't have that kind of money to set up so many factories to build more GPU's; they were close to bankrupt a year or so when Nvidia was consuming the market. This was a big chance for them, they took it, and they got what they wanted; profit to keep the company in the green. They know that they don't have nearly enough capital to mass produce the cards right now. All they can do is watch the money fly in.

Right, because no one buys consoles, mid-range graphics cards, better value laptops and CPUs anymore.

Also ddr3 is more expensive than before strictly because of factory issues (same as with HDDs a while ago, big factory flooded/on fire, people still buy pcs, up the price and problem is solved, or so they think)

cant tell if your serious. But the console gaming market is shrinking thats for sure.

It's shrinking but guess who wins in both the console and mobile market now? Nvidia can't keep up with just desktops since it's becoming niche.