Hello Logan, Wendell.
What do you guys think about recent indie game developers' openness to its audience in terms of communication and feedback?
Originally, I thought it was a progressive and positive idea that would give game developers and their audiences a chance to somewhat co-create a game through feedback and constructive dialogue. However, recent attacks to Phil Fish, creator of Fez, and others makes me think that gamers in general aren't mature enough to be constructive, give criticisms in a positive way or make their opinions known without showing decent towards others' opinions when they differ.
Perhaps it's a console gaming thing? Or should they minimize communication to a select few or just not at all?
Quite frankly, I'm disgusted that there are gamers that exhibit this kind of behavior and bite the hands that feed us, so to speak. You know, they give us games lol
Here's a an article on the matter.
most everything is a double edged sword, you gotta be ready to get cut a few times if you want to progress, what they did was still wrong
While I firmly believe the asshat knows as phil fish deserved most of what he got, some stuff is over the line. Stuff such as the crap the cod developre got, although I'm not surprised a bunch of 12 year olds that are objectively not mature enough to be online and should not be allowed to so much as touch an online game, is far over the line. I'm not a fan of cencoship of anykind, but we as gamers need to let the immature twats that do stuff like what happened to the cod dev know it is NOT ok.
Well, I for one, especially after that CoD-disaster, can understand where that opinion is coming from. But to generalize is just as immature. It's neccessary to keep communication alive, and to find mechanisms to filter out the idiots without "accidentaly" block out all criticism, as the latter would ultimately just lead to ...EAism (maybe not as crass as at EA itself), and we know, that's bad for everyone.
Game companies need to focus on quality, not quantity (not the number of copies sold).
Just look at what happened to ARMA 2. Fun game when it released, but it blew up after people started hearing about the day z mod. Gaming is still a niche culture. It is just like any other hobby. Some will spend hours and hours gaming, while others either ignore it, or only play on occasion. I doubt these two examples of gamers are playing the same games.
Does make you wonder about the delay on the next Half Life. Is valve simply not giving us a release date so they don't have to deal with the pressure?
As a game developer/author myself, I would say that a ton of people are not ready for criticism. Most people in the world are used to observing things their entire life, and participating when it comes to it. However, when you begin to create something and offer to illuminate it to the masses, it's actually quite shocking to know that people care in negative or positive ways about it.
You can't expect everyone to support you or get what you're trying to do, it's next to impossible. Having seen "Indie Game The Movie", I'm not going to name names, but some of those developers are in the industry for the wrong reasons. The moment you begin to delve into game development and justify your creation on pure self experience or only how you feel about it, your course is most likely set for immediate failure. You don't make a game for you, and when you do, you begin to challenge the medium. There's structure for player untition that absolutely must be established in order for the players to partake in your world or ultimately care about it. When you're missing that element, it can result in shambles.
I'd say that over the course of the past two years, the development of my game has scrapped itself of next to 80% of its origin. But sacrifice is usually a very good thing. But criticism is very hard to take when you are first introduced to a mass audience that has the potential to support or tip your work. You just hope that they support it.
You have to listen to your audience. No matter how much you love your game, and it's great to be passionate about it, but there comes a time where you need to dig deep and start being honest with yourself. I was almost in denial seven months ago when my work needed desperate saving. But I stepped back, listened to not just criticism, but what type of intuitive design gamers admire and want from a gaming experience. That has exponentially put me in the right direction. I even listened and watched let's plays, podcasts, developer interviews, etc from games I didn't even care about. But I took the time to listen to every word they said.
When all said and done, making a game is extremely difficult, and I've seen my worst days being in the development process. But just know that I would NEVER recommend it to any young aspirer who just likes to play games and dreams of making them. Because if I were to be honest in the nicest way possible, you may have played a hundred games but you know absolutely nothing about how to write one.
You can also be a genius programmer yet not know how to implement some fun game mechanics.
Sacrificing is good if you do it when the whole team feels like they can continue to do so. If you make miracles like in the case of Ha-lfLife then it's a great thing. However so many good games could have been greater have they not been rushed or scrapped most of them before release dates, so many great mods died like this too :(
In my case, if I hadn't scrapped things it would have been horrible, excessive game design. Rushing and some scrapping can be mistakes though, trying hard enough not to make those mistakes myself. And I agree that you may know C++ on higher tier levels, but it doesn't mean you know how to make a game.
Yes, Fish acted like a deuche, but that doesn't mean we have to stoop down to his level in order to make our opinions or suggestions known. Obviously and unfortunately, the ESRB serves as nothing to prevent immature 12 year olds from getting their hands on COD and like games, and ruin things for us :/
"You don't make a game for you, and when you do, you begin to challenge the medium. There's structure for player untition that absolutely must be established in order for the players to partake in your world or ultimately care about it. When you're missing that element, it can result in shambles."
*Slow clap* Very well articulated sir. You have hit the proverbial nail on the head!
"When all said and done, making a game is extremely difficult....you may have played a hundred games but you know absolutely nothing about how to write one."
And that folks sums up a portion of why there are so many idiotic critisims and opinions....because they don't know the stress and difficulty as well as blood, sweat and tears, that goes into a game....especially for indie developers because it's their baby.
" I even listened and watched let's plays, podcasts, developer interviews, etc from games I didn't even care about. But I took the time to listen to every word they said."
This, sir, shows great humility and the ability to introspect. Bravo!!
Honestly, Valve knows EVERYONE want's HL3, but the high longing and potential hype can ruin a games as expectations are simply too high. I don't think they're worried about sales. HL already has a great reputation for being a quality game and having top notch writing. But we're in a generation where if there isn't anything new, e.g. game mechanics or some type of innovative thing, we criticize it harshly, and if there is, we do the same anyway. I think they're waiting for a time to relsease the game when it's going to truly be appreciated for what it is rather that what is has, or doesnt.
Let's not forget that Game Developers are letting 6.5million+ people have their say on their product. It's up to them to sift through their say and find the real critisms behind the B.S. This situation has its good and bad and no product(or whatever it is) never received its haters.
You like that double negative, don't ya? That's what I thought.
I'm curious about what you mean when you say 'know how to make a game'. Do you mean balancing gameplay mechanics to create a level game, or purely how to write the code which does what you require?
What was wrong with attacking Phil fish, I hate the guy. He said gamers are the worst people and being the moron he is he didn't realize gamers pay his bills, he comes of as egotistical hipster douche in the interviews, he said all Japanese games are aweful and made one japanese Dev feel aweful, he didn't even write the code for fez. I hate the guy and I'm glad he left the industry, I feel a bit sorry for his team though but I'm sure they will get work.
Also please let's not forget its his job so he should treat it like one and respect the people who pay his salary(gamers) and the other people in the business like Japanese game devs.
It's tough to say. Coding is very different from construction, like building is to programming. Before coding comes along, there's an entire chain of level design that pushes both the narrative and the gameplay. Such as making sure every level is nicely and cleanly between a familiar, intuitive playground and a convincing, invested story approach. Because you can code to make sure the game feels comfortable and fulfilled, but at the same time if the story arc or "playground" is off due to the actual "construction" or build of the level, it can keep a narrative from punching through. I'd have to say both of which you said only compliment one another.
Thanks for the compliments, Mom!
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with attacking Fish, especially given that he's rude, inconsiderate and keeps putting his foot in his mouth. I guess using him was a bad example. I was trying to aim for those that least deserve it, like the mass effect writer/s. The ending felt incomplete but it's nothing to attack the writer/s for...at least not personally, calling them stupid, or ass monkeys won't solve anything. But critiquing their work is something else.
It's a shame a cry baby such as phill fish owns the rights to fez, I really liked the game and a sequal would be cool.