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Forum Meta Discussion 2019 3rd Edition


Hello and welcome to our quarterly forum meta discussion.
In this thread you are free to discuss your feelings on the state of the forum. This may include such topics as proposals for new rules or revisions of current rules, comments on how you feel moderation is being handled, proposals for new forum features (please be reasonable as Discourse is not magic) or other ideas you may have (user driven giveaways, get crackin threads, ideas for new badges, etc).

This thread will remain open and globally pinned for a period of two weeks and then be locked/unpinned. If you would not like it to appear in your feed as pinned, you can scroll to the bottom of the thread and unpin it for yourself.

If a topic is better served as its own thread a TL4 user may elect to split it off into a new thread where the topic can be discussed more easily.
(TL4 or Trust Level 4 users are any higher than Regular, this includes Leaders, Moderators, and Admins.)

Thread Rules:

This is not a lounge or Mega thread, please avoid shitposting. TL4 users decide what constitutes that on a case by case basis and may act upon it.

This is not a thread to flame users or staff. Constructive criticism is welcome but blatant violations of rule 4 and 6 will be dealt with accordingly.

Be prepared for the possibility of another user disagreeing with your opinions, act responsibly.

This thread will be open for two weeks from July 1st to July 15th



I think l1t needs to give out free ice cream.

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pinned globally #3

two weeks




I’d like to revamp the main web page which would facilitate more articles and contributors.

I’d like to get back into training/dev stuff like the udemy course (of time permits).

I’d like to do what I can to encourage positivity and encouragement. We can accomplish a lot together.

The forum is in a lot of ways the glue that can help that. The wiki on the forum has been “okay” but it doesn’t scratch the itch. So far nothing really has in that regard.



Ohhh that would be cool. Would the contributions go under a review process of the L1T staff? Do you have editors on the payroll or as interns? That last question might be too personal, I’m not trying to pry, genuinely curious about the org :grin:

That would be aweeeesome. I’ve worked with Linux professionally for a couple of years now, but that intro course you made still showed me a lot, especially with tmux. I just used it as a ghetto “window manager” until I watched your segment on it. Now I work on my laptop, detach, go to my desktop, attach, and pick up where I left off; ssh sessions, vim sessions, tailed logs, and moar!

Are you going to stick to the Linux admin stuff or move into a webdev/DevOps/CI-CD platform? Perhaps pursue embedded as hinted from the last ESR video? :grin:

With regards to:

I would love for people to start being less critical of one’s workflow and more critical/helpful with their ideas or projects. I’ve observed, frequently, that when someone starts a thread on their project or asks a question about troubleshooting, the thread devolves into “Why are you using Ubuntu? Use Arch!” or “Windows? lol. You can’t write software on Windows.” Some of the moderation staff has even encouraged this behavior, pushing their anti-telemetry agenda and dismissing any arguments for using Windows.

I don’t want this to turn into a tirade or rant, I’m not pointing fingers or calling anyone out, I’m just asking that it stop. If someone makes a thread and asks how to block Windows 10 from calling home, that’s great, fire away, but if someone is asking how to run a PowerShell cmdlet or get something working on Windows, as soon as someone prattles on about spyware or says “use Linux”, the hammer should come down and messages should be altered or deleted. I’m not saying “ban everyone”, but sometimes threads just get locked rather than cull the behavior that prompted the lock.

It’s incredible how much more interest you pique and support you gather when you approach free and open source software in a sensible, practical manner.

I suppose the same can be said for AMD vs the world and CLI vs GUI. While less prevalent, the CLI vs GUI screamfest does not benefit anyone. The AMD crew is akin to the Rust community, though, in that you must use it or die in the resistance. Evangelicalism and fanboyism are two different things. One can be a proud user and advocate without attacking others.

The threat of consequences for violating the rules is not as effective as immediate action. An extreme example of this is why the Death Penalty doesn’t deter crime.

I also think the rules could use some revamping. It doesn’t say anywhere to be kind, supportive, etc. While that should be a given in an online community, it is not.

I tend to be outspoken, often confusing others with my dark/sarcastic sense of humor being interpreted as rage. That being said, I will say the lack of empathy demonstrated on these forums is alarming. Some would rather show how smart they are or would rather “own” someone in a discussion rather than kick back and discussion the merits of x or y technology. This can backfire, for when the former does make a joke, it is interpreted as their “normal” behavior. Others just need a proverbial slap in the face. There are three or four members on this forum I know exactly what their response to a thread is when I see they’ve responded, before opening the thread. While these are personal problems that I just need to get over and ignore, (here comes the outspoken part) others have shared this sentiment in that they blanket block certain sections or users, or just flat out ignore the forum all together. As a member, it pains me to see this, considering the once positive light this forum was cast in by all. I can’t imagine as a moderator or as an owner how this must feel.

While my own personal experience is not reflective of others, I was brought here because of a love of technology. The L1T banner found me, almost by accident, as I was on the outs of two other communities, and I’ve been here ever since. I refuse to let pervasive fanboyism and a few bad apples censor my thoughts or break my workflow because I don’t do things their way. When I joined this forum, no one behaved like this. It’s been said to me several times that “it’s always been that way”. Well, I disagree. I find it ironic that all of the Windows users hide out in the various Lounges, generally reserved for off topic, because the Windows sections are plagued with such nonsense. I also find it interesting that the people with the most *nix knowledge are also holed up in the Lounges, because when they engage in the OSS sections it’s arguing over pedantic, frivolous shit that doesn’t matter. KDE, or Gnome, or i3wm, or XFCE, what does it matter. BUILD, DREAM, HACK. Do something besides allow others to threaten your workspace or make others feel inferior because they’re not like you. If everyone in this world was just like you, this world would suck.

I would rather collaborate with others in FOSS using Java and Kotlin and Scala than collaborate by myself using C and Assembly. Those of you that know me should understand the significance of this statement. Those of you that don’t, know that my skin is crawling and I just threw up my breakfast :wink:

Well, this turned into YARATBAD (Yet Another Rant and Tirade by AdminDev) even after I said it wouldn’t. But really, it’s because I care and want this place to be better than it has been the last few months. Things went from bad to worse and it seems like the apathy that spawned from it is holding everyone back from making improvements. We made a BSD section and overnight it blew up into it’s own underground community, like what Linux was back in its day almost, and now it’s dead and desolate. If I can help to prevent that from happening again I will. Support and structure is needed, though.



I’ll throw my thoughts out there I guess.

First off, I don’t really have answers for what I’m about to say. Just ideas. If someone wants to run with it and try to hash it out, that’s great. If it falls flat, that’s fine too.

I feel like there are two forces at work here that are limiting the forum as a whole:

First, there is “something” that is missing that fosters interaction and involvement. I don’t know what. Maybe it’s leaders that are knowledgeable, personable, outgoing, and freely offer advice and encouragement. Not saying the leaders we have now aren’t some of these things, but something just feels off.

Maybe it’s fundamentally how discourse works? The default view is the entire forum listed with the most recent thread modified. In my mind this a terrible idea. There’s no direction, there’s no subject, everything is just lumped into one never-ending list. By default there no segregation of topics. Maybe we can switch so the default is Categories instead of Latest.

The second thing is the rules. I know this has been discussed over and over. Beat that horse. But it really has pushed a lot of users away recently. Active users, veteran users. It hurts the forum. Rules tailored to specific users, or a small minority of users, hurt the forum as a whole. Kneejerk rulemaking because someone’s feelers got hurt is wrong. When European users speak out against overly strict rules and then leave, something is wrong.

I like this forum. I’m trying to be more active. It’s hard for me because I’m terrible at interaction with other humans. Hopefully more members chip in with opinions.



majority of new threads are helpdesk, unironically need more mega threads

I’ll see what I can come up with



Users can set their Home page to whatever they prefer.




I know users can change to Categories view. I’m saying defaulting to Latest might be an issue. The phpBB and vBulletin forums of yore worked well and were very popular. I feel like people like organization over an endless list of random topics.

Just a thought. I’m going try using Categories for a while, see how it works. I feel like it won’t do much unless a lot more users do it.

And one other thought on categories. If we can have leaders who are primarily “assigned” or “in charge of” a category they like and are passionate about, maybe that will push some growth and engagement.

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that would only be allowed if the person had a level headed and neutral view of it.
zealots deserve to be beaten into submission



Very true. Hard to attract and retain people like that.

Also, just changing from latest to category on the homepage doesn’t stick. Need to dig through user profile settings and change it in there.



I went on a lengthy hiatus came back and saw a fair amount of issues. There were Blog threads that seem like cry for help, not a tech blog.

Other random fights about fairly inconsequential things: GUI vs CL, Linux vs Everything, AMD vs everything. What someone else uses doesn’t matter.

That seems to have died down which is good.

On the flip side everything has died down. The site is more of a help desk at the moment. Not sure how you get people to post OC. Mega threads help a little so do blogs.

Maybe some gamification. Video game nights. War games could be neat but there would have to be some neutral ground to avoid any damage. Also give out badges for best thread or post of the month?

A little more engagement from the mods could be good. Or if there is burn out, maybe, rotate in new blood?



I think that’s it’s pretty cool that you guys want more of a personal interaction with mods. On other forums mods just mostly stick to moderating and don’t really come out of the woodwork. Of course that depends on the forum. But with more mod interaction, the forum would feel more home like.



That is how it used to be.

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makes mods feel more like people rather than opaque overlords



That’s why I try to have more interaction. Also, I like participating in the forum. I’m not here for a power trip.

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I want both



I’ve felt pretty similar. We all have expertise in different areas of varying degree as well.

Some of us are nutty engineers who work on cars on our past times amingst other things… Others are really good at IT. They know what kubernetes even is (I literally found out yesterday)… Definitely could use an injection of many skilled users and maybe even groups passion.

I’m afraid I was partially guilty for this. I definitely made a thread that turned into that. I was trying to go for objective discussion and I was also trying to see if I could connect the command line gurus with the GUI junkies but man that definitely did not happen. I think if they just listened to both sides needs amazing stuff would happen. I think that can go for the forum as a whole. I’m not trying to point the finger at the Lounge but I’m going to point the finger at the lounge. Look the lounge is cool and its a fine place but people other than “regular users” should be invited to share their ideas of a post there without being driven out by ridicule. I’ve noticed that. I know I’m not the only person to notice it either.

If the direction of the forum wants to spawn ideas and create content within the forum. Well the only way to do that is an industrial engineer brainstorm type process.

The process is simple everyone brings there ideas to the table. That table is some off topic spot people are allowed to commune. Nobody shoots down any idea. Then eventually at the end. People can sit and talk. Users interested in helping a user do so can draft and talk about it in a PM. That’s how it should be not saying it will be like that.

I’m going to piggy back off of this. There are new users who try to come and get an opinion. I definitely try to provide it. However to often to many times I will see a reply from a user that’s fairly regular or simply is fanboying his butt off about something and proceeds to reply to everyone else but the OP. This kind of fanboyism has to go out the window. Whether its AMD vs the world or IRMAGERD (kek) my Desktop environment will defeat all and smash all (evil laugh). That should just be moved into the lounge or blackholed. If your aim is to help the OP. Reply to the OP constructively not other people argumentatively. We have had our examples.

Sorry to bring you two into this but @MazeFrame @MasterNurmi … Numi mentioned the other day when I talked about making common every day LED powered things. Numi stated that it would be wonderful to make those things but only Maze and I had any clue what we were doing. I think there’s a spot for maker space in the wiki. Its a tech forum engineering and maker stuff is still tech. It doesn’t have to be above peoples heads.
I think it would be pretty cool to see people post their 3D print designs or circuit stuff but again the lounge has to not just be a shit so but an area where people can talk out an idea without being completely crapped on. I mean jokes here and there occasional shitstorms that’s lounge culture but its gotta be good natured.

Now kewldude mentioned moderation in the OP. Moderators could be well more involved tbch. Our rules are fine I’ve never seen an issue with them in fact I protested all the new ones created because there was no need all that was needed is more involved moderation. Its not a powertrip like some claim. Moderators are normal people with normal every day desires.

Alright well you all know me. Circa late 2015-2016-2017 I generally was absent. It for the most part was my own break as I focused on my career and explore other communities etc
Here’s a systemic problem I’ve seen. After all the issues I mentioned calmed down. Well the whole entire forum just simmered. In fact most of those users will leave because well their egos and feelings got hurt because the decision did not lay in their favor. That is pretty ridiculous. If you don’t believe this occurs? Look at the forum activity since April till now. The forum is well been a bit of a help desk thread collection for a while. The lounge is not a good measure of the forum. I think engagement should not be forced but more encouraged. If you sit in the lounge all the time I guarantee you will get burnt out if you don’t visit other parts of the forum. Also in the lounge, just because a user is different than you or has a different sense of humor doesn’t mean mass drama needs to occur. So what if they are different. Talk to the user and get to know them … Might even help your own self to get to know many different folk.

As for blogs. I find some interesting. I see a lot of cool ones but I can’t help but wonder. Is this a need for other users engagement? People want to talk about their things they are passionate about but they can’t seem to find a common group? Idk how to feel about them.

All I want to see is people including the oldest of users open to new ideas

I’ve thought about more but well I need coffee :slight_smile:



I like the Makerspace idea. I don’t know how to code but I’m pretty good hands on. Having some mentorship in the crafting of my ideas would be great. I would like to learn more about coding but don’t have time…or maybe don’t have enough interest as I don’t see the application for it. Perhaps if I combined making something that needs some coding as well I would have more incentive.
One idea I have is to control pwm traction devices with steering input.

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A bunch of things, loosely related at best:

Observed the same. Strong opinions of TL4’s have lead to threads beeing locked and OP not getting anywhere.

I agree. The “spreadsheet of doom” that is latest really drowns the in-depth, DIY and general effort topics in noise.

Seperation can be made hard(er) between categories and sections.

Example of how discourse can look from Blizzard forums.

As mentioned earlier, harder seperation may help. If the wiki section was hard divided from the main forum, it would be “accessible” because there is a place to just browse it.

Who would have guessed…

If possible, maybe try make that the default view for everyone?
Maybe reducing the “in your face” aspect of the spreadsheet-like default will boost engagement and visibility.

Everyone here (except a few bots) are human. Why not behave like that?

Yet community projects (community game night, anyone?) went nowhere. It is sad and I (currently) lack the time to change that in any way.
I think the L1T User Reference Lookup Thread is brilliant. It just needs a bit more exposure.

Having a “DIY corner” or “Makerspace” category would be nice. My Electronics corner is in blog. Blogs are broadcasts, one author to many. Threads are for discourse, colaboration!
I would like a bunch of likeminded and the ones who want to try get together and do things. Have an “Oasis for tinkerers” type thread.

My Two cents or more:

  • There have been no new rules communicated, begs the question if new rules were made

  • The Rules Thread does not offer any links/helpful reads on how to make a good thread

  • The “showcase” for projects that was mentioned in some previous Meta Discussion did not happen or was not communicated where to find it (if the 2nd, nullifying the showcase aspect).

  • Community get-together threads were fun and games, then two ruined it for everyone. It died down by itself. And then, just to remind everyone it existed, it got locked a week or two after. That are justice-system levels of delay between offense and “punishment”.

  • I irregularly visit TechPowerUp Forums. It is different over there. Much more lively and less “neighborhood get together” like this is.