Feminism vs Gamergate, Idiots on both sides

So by now, most if not all of you know what Feminism and Gamergate is. So I won’t bore you with the details but Feminism for those who don't know is about equality for all. Though the tendency is to priorities how the world can change to improve the social and political rights of woman. The reason for the name Feminism. On the other hand on a different subject, Gamergate is about ethics of game journalism, against journalist who have strong ties with developers or those with an agenda who would mislead the readers to reach their goal. For example Tyler Wilde who speak highly of Ubisoft games, against the common belief. This is likely to be due to his girlfriend being employed by Ubisoft herself.

Now while both of these groups have an agenda that seems to be on two different subjects, they have come into conflict due to a number of toxic people on both sides. On one hand, You have a number of Feminists who use Feminism as a call to change the way games are designed on a story and features standpoint to stop sexism in videogames.
On the other hand, you have a number of gamers, a disgustingly large number of gamers who are sexist elitists. Those who believe woman should be “In the kitchen, Making a sandwich” who don’t care for how woman are treated in online games and see them as inferior. You also have a number of gamers who idolize woman, especially woman who play video games and their comments woman also consider harassment and for good reason too. However you also have a large number, not a majority who believe woman are better than men. That men are inferior.

Let’s get this straight. Neither side is in the right in this conflict. So many people on both sides do not care for what the other side believes in and flings insults and personal attacks at each other. Both sides seem to be incapable of taking a moment, listen to the argument and comprehend where the other person is coming from. Yea sure a large number of people have it completely wrong and are attacking the other side purely for the fun of it. Sadly largely on the Gamergate side with trolling. Both sides have sent death threats, DDOS’ed and partaken in some disgusting behaviour.

Now the world is full of double standards. It’s not ok to hit woman yet totally ok to hit men. It is ok to showcase a woman being raped in a movie or TV show yet in a video game it’s misogynistic and should be stopped. Because men are the targeted audience, it’s ok to ignore the female audience because they don’t play this game. Double standards harm society and does not produce a healthy environment for either side. Little known to many gamers, the number of woman in video games is on par with the number of men. Yes in areas like First Person Shooters, Men outnumber woman. However going more into the social games like MMORPG’s, woman outnumber men. However if you talk to the average woman playing these games and other games, they will tell you they tend to not talk. That they feel safer when they keep silent as they receive harassment by other games. Now it can be just one person, or 5 in a game but whether or not it’s someone telling them to get back to the kitchen or someone who doesn’t have a girlfriend starts talking to them looking for something more than just a friendly game, How would they feel? As men, we think, “Oh they should take it as a compliment but really, how would you feel if every 30 minutes, a girl asked you out, every hour, every day, all year? There is a time and place. Video games are not it.

On the other hand we have Anita Sarkeesian, A prominent Feminist and Journalist who does not care for what Gamergate is and would rather see female NPC’s unkillable (GTA situation in Australia) and see woman always put in a good light, always right and strong characters in games. Now let’s be honest. Woman are underrepresented in video games. GTA 5 would have done well with a number of strong female characters but instead the game was primarily male characters. There are some strong female characters in the game but it could have been better. However a number of feminists mislead the public into thinking videogames are purely misogynistic killing simulators that see woman as nothing more than sexual objects. And some games do fall under that claim, but the majority don’t. Yes the majority of games could do better to include better female characters who hold more to the story but not to the extent that journalists in Kotaku and PC Game claim needs to happen. I think Christina Hoff Sommers gets it right.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RVlCvBd21w

So what needs to really happen? Male gamers, you need to stop with the toxic bullshit that you guys spout. It’s disgusting and is embarrassing.
Developers, Start adding stronger woman to your games. Add the option of a female main character. If sexuality is part of your game, broaden the scope of what can be done. If a man wants to marry and man or a woman wants to marry a woman. Put that option into the game. Bioware does a decent job at this and others should follow.
Feminists, you need to be more understanding of where gamers come from. They don’t want to lose their first person shooter, Stories about a brutal world where equality does not exist. Yes the representation of woman in games needs to improve but that does not mean putting woman on a pedestal in games. Let games be judged by the same standard as movies and TV shows.
Everyone, do your fucking research before you make claims, think before you say shit and both sides will see an improvement in what they fight for. Adam Baldwin might have his visa to visit Australia due to the toxic behaviour of both sides. All because he believe journalists need to be held to a higher standard and coined the term Gamergate.
Journalists, Sort your shit out. Just because you can write and you have a website that will post your bullshit, does not mean your articles are the word of god. You need to hold your work up to a higher standard. It should be balanced and should not favour any agenda.

If we are going to see a better world, we all need to pull our fingers out of our asses and work for it. Call out anyone who does something wrong and don’t argue, debate. Arguments go nowhere. Debates and discussions make progress.

out.

Great topic Rudster :) Whenever this 'debate' comes-up I always think of: Lynn Conway.



Lynn was a pioneer of early computer chip development with IBM during the 1960's; much of what is accomplished now on modern computers (PC's) would not have been possible without her ground-breaking innovation (and that includes 'gaming-computers, as well as standard desktops)



Lynn Conway is also transgendered, and she was undergoing 'transition' when she was employed at IBM in the 1960's when she first initiated this new concept in chip design.

 



In essence a 'transgendered person' made it possible for people (whether non-gamers or not) to utilise computers in an efficient manner.

 

 

This is 'food-for-thought' for those that part-take in this debate.

 



i duno, if i was being asked out every 20 mins i would feel like hot shit.

+1 people are stupid on both sides

Games very much could use more fleshed out female characters. And video games are not dating sites.

Feminism means equality for all sexes not just women.

Can't we all just agree video game are for fun. And giggling as you hit someone with a rocket launcher, gibbing them

 
 

 

Not to attack or insinuate anything negative about you, from your use of pronouns it seems that you're female.

 

i love you

 

Tiny-dicked virgin retard

So again, connotation of text can be hard to read.

I can take this one of two ways.

One: You're quoting what I wrote and are giving positive feedback that doesn't seem to have much context to it.

Two (More Likely): You're insinuating that I was attacking the OP and are insulting me by calling me a Tiny-dicked virgin retard.

I'll run with the second based on what you quoted and ask you how stating that I believe the OP's gender to be female is an insult? Is stating someone's gender now constituted as an insult?

I was simply stating her gender because I believed from what I read that her/his original statement was biased in some places. Notably, in the first quote that I wrote where she completely omitted that there are gamers who aren't sexist and when she said: "Male gamers, you need to stop that toxic bullshit you spout." Because the first one is false and the second one isn't exclusive to male gamers but to ALL gamers. We all spout toxic bullshit. Not all the time, but we're well known for it.

Now, that was my opinion from what I read. You may come to the opinion that my wall-o-text was male biased. Well, I am male. But it's my personal belief that we should treat women the same as we treat men, that is with the same amount of unerring apathy. I dismiss male pain like every other human being, I just do the same for women as well. Isn't that equality and tolerance?

no, im not insulting you, i just though your choice of words was funny.

im pretty sure op is male even if he acts otherwise sometimes.

Ah, Well apologies. I put that there along with the note on the bottom because often expressing views counter to popular feminism people seem to think it's some kind of attempt to put women back into the dark ages or some shit.

While, for the most part, I agree with what you say; There is one particular part that I find to be "toxic bullshit".

Namely:

On the other hand, you have a number of gamers, a disgustingly large number of gamers who are sexist elitists. Those who believe woman should be “In the kitchen, Making a sandwich” who don’t care for how woman are treated in online games and see them as inferior. You also have a number of gamers who idolize woman, especially woman who play video games and their comments woman also consider harassment and for good reason too. However you also have a large number, not a majority who believe woman are better than men. That men are inferior.

While all three viewpoints are represented in gamers, the quantities that you list are not supported by data and likely false as well. In addition, excluding the majority of gamers who are perfectly fine with having female gamers in their community paints us as being a 100% gender-biased group who either degrade women, or idolize them just for being gamers even sometimes going as far as thinking they're better.

Not to attack or insinuate anything negative about you, but from your use of pronouns it seems that you're female. It seems also that you've been attacked previously and insulted by gamers with pointed words and phrases using your gender as a vector of attack. However, understand that your first hand experiences of how you felt may not accurately portray the genuine feelings of the other person and their beliefs on the roles of women.

Because: Poe's Law and the inherent competitive nature of video games.

Just about all of the digital media that can be classified as a video game is competitive. You have an objective, obstacles, and rewards when you overcome the obstacles. Even single player games, because there your opponent becomes the game itself. Failing to overcome the obstacles leads to frustration, and succeeding leads to elation. Once we introduce other players into the mix and make multiplayer games their competitive nature naturally brings out insults, bragging, trash talk, etc.. We compete not just in score and through skill but also on mental and emotional levels. This isn't exclusive to Player vs. Player videogames, but also to cooperative games where you have intergroup competition even when players share objectives and goals. It's also not exclusive to video games. Sports, board games, and card games all have the same elements and the same trash talking jockeying for social and emotional positioning to augment their skill.

Now, for the insults. We all tailor our insults to the person we're insulting. The more information we have on that person, the more information we have to insult the other person whether in jest or with the intent of offending the other person. We do this for race, gender, wealth, occupation, sexual prowess, sexual experience, attractiveness, size of genitalia, etc.. This happens regardless of the person's actual beliefs or feelings, they're just trying to get to you. They're trying to INSULT you and get your goad.

Let's bring in Poe's law, bring this all together and make some logical conclusions.

Poe's law basically says extremism and mockery of extremism can be impossible to distinguish from one another. Without the cues from body language that make up the vast majority of information communicated when we talk to one another, it's easy to misinterpret the intention of statements and the true beliefs of the person making them. Pure text is the hardest to distinguish since we're also stripped of vocal tone, inflections, and pacing changes that we use to convey sincerity or sarcasm. Using only vocal communications (Voice chat) helps a lot with cutting down on miscommunication, but it still happens especially when dealing with strangers and other cultures since you're not used to their particular manner of speech and customs. Combine that with the above statement about insults and it becomes very difficult to tell when some is actually being sexist. They may just be insulting you to gain a competitive advantage or they may be just mocking the extremist views of the actual sexists for amusement or for social commentary.

Then add in the fact that gamers completely span all other demographics. We're males, females, conservatives, liberals. We come from completely different cultures with completely different beliefs. We're also on average a very young demographic. Most gamers were born long after women's sufferage and rights have been won and were established. Usually decades before we were born. For most of us, women having jobs or doing other traditionally male tasks is perfectly normal. So, why would we have sexist gender views? Especially across cultural, economic and political boundaries. We're treating male gamers, especially white male gamers, like they're all sexist, racist, roots of all world problems and woes. As if once you pick up that controller you stop being an individual with personal beliefs and feelings and become some callous, unfeeling, misogynistic asshole who needs to understand and respect other people's feeling while at the same time be totally OK with yours being completely disregarded.

To sum this nearly 1,000 word response:

  • Games are competitive
  • Competition breeds insults and trash talk
  • Insults are tailored to the individual based on known or assumed information about that individual

As such, when you identify yourself as being female the insults you receive may be targeted at your gender. This is not because gamers are some surreal aberration of individuals who are sexists assholes, but because games are competitive and insults happen to everyone. Sexist gamers are a tiny, tiny, tiny minority. Making statements like "Male gamers, you need to stop with the toxic bullshit that you guys spout." is inherently sexist and flies in the face of the facts. Women spout toxic bullshit during competitive events just as much as men do. Being male does not make you a terrible person.

So, what do I propose as a solution? Well, for one: Stop treating all gamers as male and stop pretending we're sexist assholes when we're just treating women the same as we treat men. The words may be different but the intent is almost always the same. The percent of our group that is actually sexist is a small percentage although they can be extremely vocal just as any person with extremist beliefs tend to be.

Two: Stop completely devaluing the emotions of men and overvaluing the emotions and pain of women. This is not exclusive to gaming, is historical fact, and is a worldwide issue that is completely dismissed. Men have always been the ones expected to go fight and die in wars. If a boat sinks, we're expected to be cool swimming while the women and children sit in the nice boats. If there's a burglar in your house, the man is the one expected to go investigate the noise and deal with it. We're expected to be fine dying and just shut up and take it. If we don't, then we're cowards. If women step up and do the brave thing that's unexpected of them, they're heroes. If we do it, well we were expected to anyways so who cares?

Third: Personally, I'm for more a more emotionally stoic society. Especially on the Internet. We should all expect emotional stability from grown adults regardless of what's between their legs. I don't expect any full grown adult to break down into tears when someone tells them to "Stay in the kitchen", or calls them a "Tiny-dicked virgin retard", or any other insult. That's what I expect from toddlers and teenagers who haven't fully developed their prefrontal cortex and are driven more by emotional thinking instead of logic. Also, the Internet is a uniquely permanent place. What I'm writing now will likely be stored, cached, and be fully available 20 years from now. Anything that I do may not offend someone that's present when I'm saying it, regardless on if it was directed at them or not, but 20 years down the road someone may read this and find it highly offensive. We can't treat human communications like they're wholly supposed to be used for positive comments, because even positive comments can be misconstrued as insults. The American first amendment (I know there are international users here, but the American constitution and bill of rights have been used as frameworks in many other countries so this likely applies to you as well.) was created to insult people, because we weren't allowed to insult or question King George.

As a final thought. They're your emotions. Either you take control of them or you let others do it for you like you're a Jim Henson creation.

Note: I understand that this rant may be misconstrued as an attack on the OP. There was no intention to insult the OP, women, or any other group but rather to offer a counter-argument and my opinion on this subject.

 

My thoughts on this subject is that gamers and feminists should just grow a pair...

;)

The main difference there is that is real life face to face competition. There are real consequences for such actions so people don't do them. On the internet things are a bit different. No one is saying it is acceptable behavior anywhere but to say that video games inherently cause it is misleading. The internet and the lack of accountability it provides are what cause it. Not gaming. 

No, there's nothing wrong with good sportsmanship.

But, I doubt you say the same things to your mother that you do to your friends. Also, I'm not condoning rape or rape threats but threatening to rape someone who's in the same room as you is completely different than threatening someone half a wold away online. Neither is nice or acceptable, even to gamers, but one is a far more credible than the other.

We think of other gamers, mostly, as sort of peers(They're just gamers like you). What you say and how you treat your peers is vastly different from what you say and how you treat your mother. Also, social context and who else is perceived to be present and listening changes what we say. Citation

My thoughts exactly 

I disagree, We don't see the level of insult in any other competitive environment.  I have never had someone threaten to rape my mother in a game of monopoly or while bowling. Had it happen in a game of TF2, though. So why should it be considered acceptable behavior in a video game?

Nothing is wrong with good sportsmanship.  

Disappointed that you decided that I must be a woman to have this stance. Strait white male gamer here.

 

Anyway your arguing the facts don’t match up. I cant find the study that I was basing my argument on, There are a few other studies that have looked at the problem.

 

http://blog.pricecharting.com/2012/09/emilyami-sexism-in-video-games-study.html

 

Now I understand where you are coming on, there is this idea on one side that all white male gamers are sexist and racist. Which is completely false. I like to think that most male gamers, even those who consider themselves white are very accepting of others however there is something you cannot deny. The gaming community, not as a whole but in areas that attract such people is toxic. MOBA’s, FPS’s. The amount of trash talk that is meant to anger and upset other plays is god awful. I tend to think it is the underlining problem in gaming and we all know, men are les sensitive than me. Men can’t show emotion because we have been told we shouldn’t. We have been told that showing any sort of weakness will make us less than a man. How ingrained this is in our society is debatable but it is there.

 

Now I am not trying to attack you but I get the feeling that you’re defending the actions of gamers by saying it’s just a part of online gaming.

 

competitive nature naturally brings out insults, bragging, trash talk, etc

 

Now why is that considered to be ok? I know when I play a video game, I don’t need to trash talk my opponents to make myself feel better. I don’t need that to win games. And yet when I play Call of Duty or League of Legends, I can’t help but feel disgusted. I don’t want to hear about you fucking my mum last night or how you fisted my cat. That’s not needed and this idea that its ok to be an asshole in video games just needs to stop. This “human nature” is not constructive and while the average man is accepting of it, Woman tend to be less accepting which is where this idea of gamers being sexist comes from. While the statistics point at gamers attacking female gamers more when they state their gender though the same can be said in the context of pre-pubescent gamers.

 

On the topic of Poe’s law, yes it is a serious aspect of the situation. The extreme end and those who make a mockery of a stance tend to be the loudest. That’s why so many people stay away from tumblr. But it’s for that fact that those people are the loud and proud is the reason why it’s such a problem. Even if it might be 1 in 10 people who are toxic, or hell 1 in 30, If you’re playing a 5v5 game, you will find someone who will be toxic and as gamers we need to stand up and defend those who are victimized. Refuse to accept it as an ok thing to abuse people online. It does not help anyone.

 

The fact is, we need to move our society forward. Grow up and stop with the abuse that is far too common. While most men learn to deal with it, a proportion of our community don’t and that iusnt their fault. Woman also need to be more accepting in that a large number of games are targeted at men. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t improve the image of woman in these games but it doesn’t mean we can’t have a bikini clad fighter. While I couldn’t care for characters in games that are pure sex objects, others do and there is nothing wrong with men wanting to see explicit sexual content in games. Even if it’s a lot of skin.

 

Oh and there is nothing wrong with speaking your views against a subject. It might be right or wrong. I know im not always right. This idea that if you’re a feminist, you hate games and want to destroy them or if you support gamergate, you hate woman and you would see men as the superior sex over all. Especially if you’re white.

 

This idea is idiotic. There is no acceptance on either side. I support the ideologies of both gamergate and feminism. I do not however support the abuse that comes from both sides and what the extremists on both sides spout out.

Disappointed that you decided that I must be a woman to have this stance. Strait white male gamer here.

As I said in my OP, I based it off of your use of pronouns. Notably, "Male gamers, you". You in that context is an exclusive pronoun, meaning not including yourself. If you said "Male Gamers, We" I would have assumed male since you're including yourself in the male gamers group. Be disappointed in yourself for not reading my comment fully :P.

Also, Straight. Sorry, my spelling and grammar aren't perfect but for whatever reason that bugged me.

Onto your response, First of all... that isn't a study. Well, TECHNICALLY it is but it's just a collection of surveys. It also didn't actually find any evidence of there actually being rampant sexism in gaming but rather it finds evidence of the perception of sexism in the gaming community. Perception of the truth and the truth are two different things. So while 79.3% of participants said they believe sexism is prominent, that doesn't mean that sexism is prominent. They just believe it is.

As for the other surveys about hiding of gender, and whether you've received sexist comments seem about par for the course based on personal experience but I believe that those numbers are not accurate for two reasons.

One, in general when we hear the word sexism or sexist we think of it as a one way street. Only men can be sexist towards women. Same goes with racism. Only whites can be racist against minorities. Even though it really goes both ways, because of historical events and perceived sexual aggression of men even though it's a two way street.

Two, as a result of point one we simply don't register a lot of sexism when it's directed at men. My insult of Tiny-dicked virgin retard could be called sexist. It's an insult tailored to that person's gender and attacks their attractiveness and sexual prowess. We also, as you pointed out in your OP, ignore male victims of rape, domestic violence, and sexual harassment. By the same token, we also take these situations extremely seriously to the point of outright absurdity. Men getting fired from their job for sexual harassment that wasn't even directed at their "victim", but was simply an overheard joke or conversation between other people. Because... last I checked harassment implies both that it's targeted and repeated. Women are also far more likely than men to actually report sexual harassment or any other sexual crime. This is likely due to the fact that no one gives a shit if you're male.

So, I think if we were somehow able to actually view all of the messages sent between gamers we'd likely find that sexual insults, messages, and harassment are likely equal between the two or even more skewed male (Since we assume naturally that gamers are male). But women are more sensitive when sexual harassment is leveled at them causing a skewing of numbers.

Next point,

Now I am not trying to attack you but I get the feeling that you’re defending the actions of gamers by saying it’s just a part of online gaming.

competitive nature naturally brings out insults, bragging, trash talk, etc

Now why is that considered to be ok?

I'm not arguing that it's just a part of online gaming. I'm arguing that it's a part of many things not JUST online gaming. Listen to audio from NFL players during the game. Or look at the large amounts of pushing and shoving that accompany a lot of competitive sports. Both male and female. Tanya Harding. It just accompanies what happens when the game stops being an obstacle and other players become the obstacle. You curse and swear or at least get frustrated at single player games when you get stuck and can't get past a certain point, or die a number of times in a row. When it becomes another person you get just as frustrated and now you have another person to vent that frustration on.

Is it "Fair"? Yes, actually. They can vent their frustration right back at you. Or make a joke. Or just taunt you. This is just part of what happens when we compete. Human nature is a valid argument because a lot of this feminism vs. gamergate crap comes from shaming people for their human nature. As a "Higher Society" we need to accommodate and understand our human nature. We can curb it to some extent, but we shouldn't be shamed, like men are, for just doing what comes naturally. All of this insulting and put downs are also accompanied by praise and adulation in most gaming communities. We need to stop acting like humans are naturally some symbiotic species that can coexist perfectly peacefully with one another all of the time. Because insults and fighting are just aberrations of the 'terrible state of the world' that we live in. When well... we're just being us.

 While most men learn to deal with it, a proportion of our community don’t and that iusnt their fault.

Well, we differ in our points of view on whether we feel society should be more stoic or empathetic. Personally I feel that yes, if you don't learn to control your emotions and internalize at least a little bit then you haven't emotionally matured into a freaking adult. You're just a toddler crying because someone said you have cooties.

We can't have free speech and protect people from being "offended" or "hurt". People can get offended at anything and this is often just used as an excuse for censoring an idea that you don't like. Anita Sarkeenan (However her name is spelled) and a lot of this modern blogger/feminist bullshit movement use Twitter and Youtube flags cry "I'm offended" and get twitter accounts and videos taken down that are simply critiquing her views and points. Freedom of expression is supposed to be free. Not constrained in any sort of way. If you want to spout stupid nonsense, it's your right.

 

I can tell I veered a bit off topic here but I'm a bit tired so excuse me. Yea, unfortunately feminists are viewed as being against gaming because the most prominent "Feminist Gamers" are promoting inequality and censorship backed by false arguments and paper dragons. Personally my view of feminists is that they don't hate men... they just think they're less important than women. Since, well they only talk about women. For the most part that is. There are some very prominent Feminists who actually talk about both sides but often the only solutions they come up with are for female problems since that's more of where their focus is.

Which isn't anything to be ashamed of. We can't be completely objective all of the time or even be completely balanced. We're all biased in some way.

As an aside, I don't play in most of those gaming communities where every word uttered is some infantile insult (CoD, LoL, WoW). But this isn't because I'm offended, I just don't like those games and find the communities to be annoying and very immature. But they still have a right to have their community even if it is abrasive and caustic.

As I said in my OP, I based it off of your use of pronouns. Notably, "Male gamers, you". You in that context is an exclusive pronoun, meaning not including yourself. If you said "Male Gamers, We" I would have assumed male since you're including yourself in the male gamers group. Be disappointed in yourself for not reading my comment fully :P.

I was disappointed because I felt you used the idea that I was a woman as a way to legitimize your argument.

Onto your response, First of all... that isn't a study. Well, TECHNICALLY it is but it's just a collection of surveys

While it is not a peer reviewed study that has strong evidence, it does support the notion that there is an issue. If you wanted me to go down the official channels for something thats a little more professional, Take a read of Anita's thesis. Its full of contradictions and a distinct lack of evidence.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/130661629/Masters-Thesis#scribd

Now I wont argue that there is sexism and racism on all sides of the table. In fact I believe how feminists and people of colour state that white people are to blame for the worlds problem is a massive problem in its self. Its not ok to generalize about a race or sex unless your a strait white male. Complete bullshit and needs to be stomped out. And they wonder why so many people are anti feminist. However your idea that it is fair for someone to attack another person because the other person can to is idiotic. Would you say its ok to murder someone because they could murder you too? No. So why is it ok to be an asshole? Its not fucking ok. Yes, Humanity is competitive but that does not mean with a bit of effort, an individual can break. There is a difference between being empathetic and being a child. Yes a lot of feminists are immature. They come up with grand statistics that are wrong, notably the 77 cents to a dollar statistic which is so far off. But that does not mean do the complete opposite and be abusive. Its possible to be grown up yet empathetic. In fact the reality both sides are empathetic to those who they think are right while stoic and aggressive when someone has a different idea. This is what I argue against.

How many gamergate supporters actually take the time and look at what feminists believe and want? Not the extremest but true feminists? I know its hard with people like Anita but stp, join a feminmist community and ask questions? And how many feminists actually talk to gamers and are open to new positions they may hold? This idea that you must stick to your ideals is such a blight on this society that it will not help the progression of societies around the world. Oh and both sides are way to accepting of infomation without fact checking. Though thats a problem with the whole world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax

All I am saying is wer need to be more accepting of others. more empathetic. Im not saying get rid of free speech. As horrible Neo Nazi's are, We cant just criminalize them for hate speech but if we change how the world even if we start with just gamers and feminists debate and communicate, We will get discussions where both sides are open to new ideas rather than sticking to a biased position. This world is toxic, Far too many assholes but it seems a number of games bring the worst out of people. And sports. But I have never been that into competitive sports apart from racing, archery and shooting and everyone there seems to be able to be good sports. Gaming has a bad name, One for the journalism and one for the toxic community that it spawned.

Yea, All of Anita's stuff is backed by... "Studies" if you'd call them that. They're usually extremely small studies for one, they're usually backed by parties interested in certain results, and she doesn't provide any counter studies. I'm not also backing myself up with any studies because, unfortunately, trying to find some on this particular topic just gives me back a flood of links to Kotaku, Polygon, and other articles that were written from solely bullshit feminist points of views spouted by Anita (feminist points of view are not inherently bullshit, just Anita's particular brand). Unfortunately, a lot of the actual scientific studies from respected journals and such are often stuck behind paywalls which pretty much defeats the exchanging of information purpose that these journals are for.

The survey wasn't an invalid point of view or anything, it's just that it stated that it was looking for evidence of sexism in the gaming culture but all it can test for is the perception of sexism in gaming because it's an informal survey.

 

The analogy between murder and insults is fairly easily seen as false as well. Because once someone murders you... you can't murder them back. Or do anything. You are dead. Someone has taken your life and your future away from you and there isn't anything you can do to change it. Someone insults you? Well, Maybe your feelings are hurt. But guess what, your feelings change throughout the day. It isn't permanent. Your life goes about the same as it did before but maybe you feel a bit offended.

I don't like that women get sexually harassed and asked for pictures or other lewd things on the internet. I don't like rape threats. I don't like children on LoL and CoD creating abrasive environments. But by the same token I expect you as an adult to realize that these are minority opinions, voiced to you by someone likely many miles away. I expect you to ignore them like the children they are. This is how we male gamers treat these assholes. We just ignore them. I expect the same for women since they are not credible threats (Usually) to your safety or your emotional health and well being. Words only hurt if you let them.

I understand your empathetic point of view and that you want the world to be a nicer place based on your views. However, I know and have seen too many examples of protecting other peoples feelings just being an excuse to censor and persecute. Even if it isn't illegal, the social pressures created by vilifying certain words or points of view can cause real world physical, economical, and mental harm to individuals.

I want a more stoic society that just ignores extremist assholes like these because when we just to protect the emotions of others, we usually do it by attacking the person we disagree with. We can't mete out objective justice, because it doesn't exist. The only real world solution I can see working is by treating adults like adults and expecting them to control themselves and think rationally instead of flying off into an emotional malestrom.

 

Back to my first point for a brief second but a lot of these statistics that are quoted are inherently skewed. They give vocal minorities a lot of weight in the numbers because they ask things like "Have you EVER been sexually harassed" meaning that if one troll likes to go on CoD and make sexist comments, he can inflate that statistic for every person he makes that comment to.If 1,00,00,00 people didn't make sexist comments they aren't counted. Just the person who makes the sexist comments. This happens not just in gaming but on whole across the internet. Because on the internet, for the most part, every point of view has the same chance of being read and counted as valid and it's all permanent. It skews statistics like crazy.

I don't believe there is actually a problem with REAL sexism in gaming. Women and men are insulted or complimented in different ways, sure, but to speak for the zeitgeist this is just a vocal minority. Gamers and the internet in general is just a reflection of wider society and societal issues. I understand calling on your peers to step up and correct inequality, but even though we're a large demographic we're also a really ignored and maligned one. We can't as gamers change societal issues because we're marginalized.

The Anita point of view that was picked up by gaming media and traditional media just marginalizes us more. They vilify us as immature, sexist, racist. Why listen to the point of view of a bunch of immature, sexist, racist assholes?

This debate needs to continue but we need to stop pretending that it's a gaming issue. It isn't. It's a larger societal issue and pretending it's an issue exclusive to gamers just marginalizes us more and stops any real conversation about change to wider society.

True but trying to argue a point that contradicts both sides is like talking to a brick wall that will ddos you for being wrong without even comprehending what you are saying. As soon as you say you disagree, your a nazi sympathizer and deserve the death sentence. I want to see a more empathetic world, So do most Feminists but so many of them go the wrong way which provokes trolling from gamers and both sides get a stigma.

What really pissed me off was this.

http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/news-features/theres-a-petition-to-keep-the-scifi-actor-who-started-gamergate-out-of-australia-20150122-12vmcl.html

He has never said he believes men are better than woman. He started gamergate to fight the false journalism thats rampant in the gaming industry.

Yea, that's stupid. Blaming one person for everything that happens under a hashtag they make is colossal stupidity and mob rule.

But we still need to speak up as best we can if we have alternate solutions to problems. Even though many people think of social issues in binary terms, you never know when yours might catch on and start being stated by more people.