Faulty VRM?

I just read a 2019 page here about boards with the best power delivery. so my build has an AsRock X570 Phantom Gaming 4S and I’ve read that the VRM’s are pretty crappy on the “4” no one mentioned “4S” yet but it’s new using the same VRM. I have a Ryzen 5 3600X in it, all this stuff is 7 months old now. I have random crashes, mainly while gaming, but it’s just rebooted for no reason a few times. I’ve troubleshot everything, and I mean all. I have 20+ years exp. building PC’s. I’ve been to AMD forums, their support, AsRock’s, and none have a clear answer. The error code is usually processor core failure(18), processor hierarchy error, the system has rebooted unexpectedly, critical hardware failure/unknown, Kernel Power System error, etc. It’s intermittent and can be like the weather. When this rig runs, it runs real well. My thought is from various complaints online about poor VRM’s on AsRock boards in general, many specifically mention this board’s predecessor/offshoot, mostly X570 boards in the mid-range area, that I should’ve opted for a Gigabyte with a true 8 or 12 phase VRM. This, I think has a 6+1 but it advertises 8 phase. I don’t have an oscilloscope but running OCCT the GPU shows some wild AMP usage and the sinewave is all over the place, like mad ripple. HWINFO shows the board grossly under reporting voltage, sometimes under load as well.

Sorry for the W.O.T. I really think changing to a better brand board would fix this issue. Like a Gigabyte Aurous something, those boards never failed me. I tried a PSU but no dice. Multimeter is too slow to read and I need someone to game while I read it, lol, my 65 year old mom doesn’t cut it. She can only drive like 20mph in Dirt Rally.

I find it tough to believe that I have a faulty CPU and GPU. Others in the AMD world have similar issues and they are using mid-range boards too. Some I know to be problematic. Possibly the right path? Some other software way to tell for sure that I missed? Just go for it?
Thanks, my specs should be in my profile when I signed up.

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The final test that might put your doubts to rest is aggresively undervolting and underclocking your CPU to see if you still experience too much ripple and crashes.
Surely kernel power errors are related to a sudden loss of power that causes the system to reset so I guess the motherboard might be the culprit since you didn’t have any luck with another PSU.

Dirt Rally has a looping benchmark feature iirc. You can use that and stop bothering your mom lol

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My mom part was a joke, lol. She does only drive about 20mph in that game since I bought a wheel.

Thanks for the quick reply. I have no undervolting in this BIOS but have tried setting the clocks below stock and still happens. The very fact it lacks such a feature found in most decent BIOS’s lends to my lack of faith in the VRM on the board.

My mind rests easier hearing someone else agree that kernel power failures relate to sudden power loss for any length of time and could or does cause said failures.

I feel that because it happens primarily during gaming, when voltages are rapidly fluctuating on the CPU/GPU/RAM, this particular product can’t handle it. Ryzen’s constantly adjust wattage, voltage, amps and the card pulls 160w, all running on the PCIe 4 lanes. One droop is all it takes to cause a fatal error in the system. Heat on the VRM doesn’t seem to be an issue during Prime 95 but that’s a single component test.

12/3 I’ll be going with either the Gigabyte Aurous Elite X570 or the Asus TUF X570 that are both sub $200 or just over right now on Ebay. New no less!

It was this or scrap the whole AMD thing and build an Intel i7 9700K with a refurb board and probably wind up spending $400 on an Nvidia 1080 8GB. A board is much more affordable.

Googling the VRM reliability lead me here and that board article about VRM’s plus the one about function of the VRM was informative to say the least.

As a former A-tech auto technician voltage regulation became more than what keeps the headlights from dimming. But I had a graphing multi-meter, other diagnostic tools available to pinpoint things, not simply go by a code readout.

I saw some other interesting articles on here like turning an Xbox into a retro gamer. It would be cool if it could emulate a PlayStation so I can play some Gran Turismo again! So I’ll be a frequent reader here.

I know, I got a wheel, Assetto Corsa, World of Cars, Dirt Rally, more, but no console anymore. Some of those old console games were cool.

Disabled now and can’t race cars anymore, but love my gaming! Thanks again.

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I have not heard about that particular Asrock X570 Phantom gaming 4S board yet.
But if it has the same vrm as the Phantom Gaming 4,
then it is not really a great vrm indeed.
But still it should be okay for a 6 core basically.

There might be a problem with your particular board maybe.
But the problem could also be several other things as well.
The vrm itself is sufficient for a 3600X.
Just blaming the vrm at this point is a bit short trough the corner!

Are you sure? All AMD motherboards beside A320 have all the OC features so it’s very weird that AsRock would omit that for that board.

Sure, you were right about it from the get go.

At this point if it’s a design problem with the board or you have a defective unit I don’t think it matters anymore I guess. But, as MisteryAngel said, it must be more about a defective unit. The 3600 sips power and it doesen’t boost too aggresively.

Absolutely, I got the joke vibe and just went along with it.

Good luck on your new motherboard and have fun racing!

I’m not sure how much research yourself has done on AsRock boards in general but they do have an extensive failure rate, mostly VRM related. I had an 1150 board go wonky and toast a RAM slot.

I’ve gone through every test short of a scope or graphing multi-meter to catch the issue prior to happening. To catch the glitch is like fishing for a 20lb. lake trout.

7 months of doing every possible test and recently helping an AMD forum member with their AsRock build using the “Gaming 4” that wouldn’t post for anything but swapping just the board worked, tells me AsRock has the same quality issues I’ve known about for the 20+ years I ran a PC sales/repair business.

I never sold an Asrock build, ever. Gigabyte, Asus and the occasional MSI were my choices. I offered a 3 year parts and labor warranty, so couldn’t afford something like this to happen to a customer.

The VRM may spec to be able to support a 3600X, however many claim that a 3900X would be ill advised. Why? They both use the same amount of power for the most part. So if the ceiling is that low, it lends reason that it might support mine to a fine line.

Also, it’s supporting the entire system, not merely the CPU, that’s just the most vulnerable component to voltage issues. I get what your saying that it could be another component on the board besides the VRM. That would be an item for a bench test, which I don’t have the equipment to do right.

I can be sure that the RAM is fine, the PSU checks out, the case wiring is good, the fans are new. The errors are related mainly to the CPU and power loss and the GPU both on the same PCIe lane. When it runs “normal” it runs fantastic. So I highly doubt that 2 components, the CPU and GPU are faulty directly out of the box at the same time. The board was a support ticket from day one over posting my RAM correctly. It took several weeks of back and forth between AsRock and TeamGroup support before TeamGroup took over talking to AsRock as they felt it was their issue. Mysteriously a BIOS update came out like a week later that allowed my PC to boot correctly to my RAM speed.

With that back story, where it seemed the board was already not right out of box, I don’t think replacing the board is cutting any corner short. Most would’ve given up on the board with the initial RAM issue. Had I done that, I most likely wouldn’t have ever found this site.

It goes back to my days as an class A auto technician. I was a diagnostic specialist for intermittent drivability issues. so I don’t give up on problems easily, to a fault.

If I could nail down the exact point where something on this board causes a fatal glitch, I would. The most likely part to do this is a VRM or faulty PSU.

Sips power??? You need to see my HWINFO when running Prime 95. This 3600X uses 90+A, 107W, 1.47v, settles to 90A, 97W, 1.40v during the test. Then there’s the card, no sipping power there.

The Ryzen CPU’s aggressively change voltage and does boost aggressively, that’s the design point. It’s why one can’t logically do a successful full core manual over clock to anything meaningful. They are power efficient but not sipping power, two very different things.

Sadly the BIOS is missing things like undervolting and LLC. The statement that “all AMD motherboards besides the A320 have all the OC features” is not accurate. Vendors are free to design the BIOS around the Agesa as they see fit. AsRock is weird, which is why it wasn’t my fist choice of manufacturer and never used one in a customer build. But if you look in my BIOS, they have settings that are the same but worded different in 3 areas! Crazy litmus test of semantics renaming PBO to something else. You can set RAM speed, timings etc. in 2 spots besides the “Tweaker OC” under “Advanced”. “Advanced” is everything from the “Tweaker OC” reworded and split up 20 ways to Sunday.

I guess to “confirm” it’s the VRM and not another component on the board that effects power distribution, I would need to conduct a full bench test. I don’t have that equipment and not sending a board under warranty to a lab in CT to find out, lol.

To be clear, no corners were cut to get to this point. It is interesting the high number of complaints are from AsRock owners Intel or AMD based. Also that many people facing these same errors are using low to mid-range boards ~$100. I paid $149 on sale 4/25, 2 days after initial release and thought it was a deal for an X570. These actually sell on Ebay for $229 new. The 2019 Gaming 4 sells for $149 and it has more BIOS features, frills but the same VRM.

What I do know for a fact is if I spend ~$180-200 on a Gigabyte Aurous Elite or Asus TUF and have the same problem, I’m going back to Intel/Nvidia forever.

That’s hammering a CPU beyond any realistic workload. 97W for a 6C 12T CPU it’s not much if you consider that just few years ago 4C 8T Intel CPUs were eating just as much power*. Also the voltage reading you’re referring to is incorrect since 97W/90A=1.07V so that’s what the CPU is running at, which is realistic.

*not talking about TDP declared but actual power numbers. Have direct experience with a 4790K.

Absolutely, that was something not really true.

It’s also, to me at least, not worth putting in as much effort to troubleshoot something like that, unless it’s your field and you’re gonna use that to progress.

I don’t you’re gonna have any issues. Also there are Buildzoid’s VRM analysis on youtube if you’re on the fence on a particular board.

Well i´m doing vrm overviews on motherboards for a couple of years already.
And in regards to the Asrock X570 lineup of boards specifically, the Pro4/ Mpro4 and Phantom gaming 4 which are sharing the same vrm pretty much.
I can tell you that basically for a 3600X they should be sufficient,
cause those cpu´s just pull around the 80A / 90A ish of current.

But if we gonna talk about Ryzen 9 cpu´s, then it´s of course a different story.
For those the vrm on those boards isn’t really good enough.
And in that case a vrm failure over time or other weird related issues,
wouldn’t really suprise me that much.

But you are stating that Asrock boards have a high failure rate mostly vrm related.
Well Asrock also has plenty of really sollid boards with good vrm’s.
So honestly i personally don’t really recognise that statement at least not now days.
But yeah there are simply lowerend cheaper boards and more expensive boards.
And most of the time the vrm is the first thing they cut the costs off with the lowerend boards.

And yeah people should use a little bit of common sense,
when choosing a board that matches their cpu´s really.
In my opinion people should never really cheap out on a motherboard.
It’s one of the most important parts of the system together with a good quality psu.

Anyways i’m by no means stating that you are wrong in regards to your paricular board.
It could very well be that your board is faulty.
I mean you are definitelly not the first person i read about having issues with those said boards.
And the vrm’s on those boards are indeed weak.
But yeah it just depends which cpu you trow on it.

Here is a nice list of x570 boards with pretty poor vrm´s out the top of my head.

  • Asrock X570 Pro4.
  • Asrock X570M pro 4.
  • Asrock X570 Phantom Gaming 4.
  • Gigabyte X570 Aorus Gaming X.
  • Gigabyte X570 UD.
  • Msi X570-A pro.
  • Msi MPG X570 Gaming plus.
  • Msi MPG X570 Gaming Edge Wifi.

Those boards are not really suitable for Ryzen 9 chips.
And in my opinion should be avoided for Ryzen 9 cpu´s.

But like i said it just highly depends on which cpu you wanne drop into them.
Because they should be fine for lower tier cpu´s like a 3600 / 3600X for example :slight_smile:

I went on a deeper dive into the Asrock Hell, lol. @MisteryAngel had said “other things can cause such errors”, did also say that the VRM should be hefty enough for this CPU but not like a 3950X or something.

Looking into the Event Viewer for hours, I noticed that Error 19 had 83 entries going back 3 months. Error 41 about the same. I had an error 4101 after playing BF4 for about 1 hour, which made me look there in the first place. Thought I was done, but looking up error 4101 I found it’s a common error tossed by game launcher’s like Origin, especially them. I also came a pon an article about error 19 and how it also has been around for a very long time, Intel it was frequent pertaining to HDIS (not realy sure what that is). Also in older AMD’s.

Fast forward it has to do with processor memory today, particularly the Infinity Fabric. Well I had mine set at 1867mhz via BIOS override to match my 3733mhz RAM. Being told that was the “sweet spot” max for 1:1 IF/RAM timing for best performance, like 1866mhz is for the AM3+ Bulldozer/Vishera CPU’s. Running DDR3 1866mhz was awesome back then.

One AMD forum article from this past October had a guy complaining about error 19’s and one suggestion was to reset the BIOS. I’m remebering I had set my RAM to 3600/1800 IF and had no issues. It wasn’t until I was able to get my 3733 to run at that speed and force the FCLK to 1867(the only choice, no 1866), I thought all was good, however my performance went down. I played with DRAM CALC to find tighter timings and managed to get it running pretty good, passing Memtest 64 Deluxe with no errors 1000% coverage. No Prime 95 errors. Never took notice to Event Viewer besides looking at what app had crashed.

Last night I set the RAM back to 3600/1800 FCLK and boom, no more codes! No game crashes, nada. Latency went up slightly to 69ns from 64.5ns. and the read/write is slightly less but not something you notice in the real world of things. Tried gaming again today for 4.5 hours and zero errors. GPU OC is stable, everything. CPU is at PBO +200 10X Scalar. I uploaded 3 .png’s of today’s OCCT test. Voltages look normal, temps well in range I’d say. Guess the board is ok, even if the BIOS sucks. I just didn’t hit the “silicon lottery” to be able to run my FCLK at 1866.

I made up some lost read/write by setting the tRFC to 288. CAS is 16 straight, tried 14 but it won’t boot, 15 is asking for the edge, and tRFC 278 felt edgy so I stuck with 288.

I guess to run 3733/1866 or better I’d need to go to the 3600XT or play with fire and get a 5600X. People are screaming mad about the 5000 series and all kinds of failures/DOA’s. Wait for the 5600XT, after AMD fixes it, lol.

Before I say this is “cured”. I’ll need to run it for days without errors. But surprisingly it might have been too much for the CPU to run 1866 FCLK that they advertise.

Last png of temps.

Ah wait now we are getting somewhere.
I see you are trying to run things out of spec.
3600mhz mem /1800mhz IF 1:1 is what most Ryzen 3000 series cpu’s,
are capable doing without much issues with the right memory kit.
Some chips might be able to go higher, but definitelly not many.

That is probably not really going to make much of a difference i guess.
Although maybe when you are lucky enough to get a good chip.
i would recommend to just stick with 1800mhz IF / 3600mhz mem.

I wouldn’t say “out of spec” due to when AMD originally advertised these 3000 series CPU’s they raved about the “sweet spot” being 3733/1866 IF and even had a nice latency graph along with expected 10FPS in AAA games. They misled most of us to believe that especially spending ~$30-50 more for an “x” would get you an “assured” chip capable of that speed and may be more. Edge of spec, yes.

They lied. But what else is new with AMD? Now the “XT” claims 1900mhz but I think realistically 1800 is the top end with those. Gamers Nexus reviewed one with astounding results but I’m sure AMD sent a very tested chip. In fact, the host was quick to point out that possible fact and that we non “XT” owners not consider running out to “upgrade” to the “XT”. A butt cover for AMD no doubt and his show. Now AMD touts the 5000 series as able to do 2000mhz IF and reality is 1900 is a stretch but 1800 works 100%. This is creating a huge amount of angry customers on the AMD forums, Reddit, etc. AMD needs to stop inflating numbers or quoting results off “cream of the crop” samples that don’t hit most of the market. Their GPU’s are marketed in the same overrated manner, requiring an RX 5700 XT owner to undervolt and declock the GPU from 2000 to 1900-1940 to stop “green screening” or “black screening”. RX 6000 owners are already finding out declocking is the path to stabilizing their new ~$549-1000+ video card.

Performance wise, there really is no hit if one sets their RAM correctly. I run custom RAM timing using DRAM Calc as a starting point and actual equations to get the rest of the sub timings right. DRAM Calc gets close but some settings are generic or aren’t correct like tRFC and the 2 other tRFC windows. Way off there, perhaps for wider stability or because most people assume they Samsung B-die an don’t. Even B-die doesn’t guarantee a certain setting will work, there’s variables in quality , JDEC spec, etc. I run Memtest 64 Deluxe overnight or 8 hours and make sure I get 800% coverage minimum with no errors. Running the stock 18,18,19,55 makes the machine a slug compared to CL 16 settings even if running at 3733. That part I boil down to TeamGroup starting to sell lesser quality RAM, single sided slower B-die in a visually appealing heat spreader. ~$20 less Gskill has better latency’s, more compatibility and more OC options, like buy their DDR4 3200 and it can OC to 3600, no problem keeping a CL 14, 99% of the time. “Live and learn”

So in the end I learned AMD lies, a lot. You can hit the “silicon lottery” easier with Intel and they don’t put their high end speed expectations in super fine print, rather in a very conspicuous part of their ads. Even starting with the i7 9700K using gold under they lid, they still say that 5ghz may not happen but 4.9 will. AMD says, if you contact them & that if my 3600X hits 4ghz, it’s fine. Why advertise 4.4 boost if only a subset can hit that? Also, it’s only one core at a time, short duration. The IF can degrade as well and the max clock will fall as a result in less than a year, poor quality. Intel you can all core OC to the wall and not have issues with good cooling and it lasts. My i7 8700K did 5ghz at the flick of the auto BIOS entry.

One person on AMD forums asked me why AMD can’t just build something where the average consumer can build a PC without spending hours in the BIOS setting all kind of things up to make it run right. I had to agree there. Anyone with basic skills can by an Intel CPU, board, nearly any RAM kit and assemble it in about an hour without a hassle. AMD requires that one have a computer science degree or earn one while assembling. Now that SHOULD be part of their disclaimer. LMAO!

Played BF4 again for 3 hours last night, no errors. No errors all day. None so far today and I will test FarCry 5 because that is a CPU bound game that used to crash all the time, usually after 2 hours or while flying a chopper. Had I bought Intel/Nvidia like my gut told me to, I wouldn’t be here. Then again, I wouldn’t have learned as much as I have.

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Well yeah Ryzen and memory support can still be a bit wonky at times.
Although it did get a bit better over the years, with the 3000 series cpu´s and 500 series boards.
I pretty much always recommend to just get a good 3200mhz CL14,
or 3600mhz CL16 kit that is on the memory qvl list of a said board eventually.
That should basically work pretty flawless in most cases.
For the die hard tweakers / overclockers, they could try to fidle around with fine tuning and tweaking their memory.
And get a marginal performance boost in certain workloads.
But that is generally not something that an average novice user should get into pretty much.

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Indeed although if I new my chip or any AMD Ryzen was stuck to using 3200, I never would have bought it over an Intel that can run almost any RAM speed, certainly 3600 even though the CPU “limit” is 2966 or something. It just decouples on Intel and there’s a performance gain to a point. Like my 8700K system I had 3800 I’m pretty sure, higher than the CPU “limit” and simply decoupled it BIOS.

3600 was working ok until I found out about that BIOS update from AsRock allowing for new types of RAM. They didn’t put my specific kit in the QVL nor the Corsair XMP they added in that update. They do support Team or TeamGroup RAM in 3600 officially. This was a CPU IF problem for sure though. Most boards handle “normal” RAM manufacture brands like Crucial, Corsair, Gskill, Mushkin, Kingston. Team and their other names but the same company have decent stuff but aren’t a hugely known brand.

As far as tweaking RAM, this board is the first time I actually needed to learn the in’s and out’s of it or return the board and then the CPU or the RAM. Through research I found DRAM Calc, the other equations needed to calculate the sub timings just to make my kit work at less than a crawl. I wouldn’t say the increase is marginal in my case, at least gaining 20 FPS or more and seriously good benchmarks that bring me very close to a 3700X, passing it in some. It brought the GPU up as well so I don’t really trail the 5700XT by enough to warrant me buying one. 5-7 FPS in titles I play at 1080p with “Ultra” settings doesn’t justify it. 4K would but I play competitively so 1080p is the standard, with plenty of “eye candy” to boot.

AMD Ryzen Memory Tweaking & Overclocking Guide | TechPowerUp

Ryzen’s love the sub timings for some reason. That’s really where extra performance lies with these AMD chips is memory adjustments not clocks.

You said about the XT not being an answer to getting to 1866, perhaps not but they rate them at 1900 and are better silicon. I did see a review from Gamers Nexus today that placed the whole XT line in the “biggest disappointment 2020” category because it was what AMD should’ve made the “X” and they cost basically the same. The 3700XT was the worst in terms of little done to add the “XT” tag to it.

I’m still not sold on an XT anything since I got the errors to stop it seems and the system didn’t take a performance hit by stepping back to 3600/1800. Slightly better I think? My upgrade path would be the 5600X in the mid-range area or the 5900X for serious improvement but still staying with 3600 RAM. The 4000 they claim just isn’t feasible, not even 1900 in most cases, rated worse for that than the XT’s. There advantage is in efficiency and response at lower volts and higher total boost. Better level 3 memory and increased “game cache” helps with some of the CPU bound games but Intel still holds the upper hand in those titles. As a “whole” the 5900X is top dog for a serious “desktop” CPU but way out of reach, if you can get one. Truth be told in GPU’s my path would be a current Nvidia 2060 Super 8GB or 2070 Super. cost wise the choice would most likely hold me to a 5700XT, which like I said, not worth it right now.

For someone who wanted to build a PC today, I would say stay the hell away from AMD period! Grab an 1151 370-390X, 3200-3600 DDR4 RAM, an i7 9700KF, and an Nvidia 2060 Super 8GB or just a 2070 8GB. That’ll get ya 160+ FPS in nearly everything without headaches and do decent 4K.

AMD guys are starting to be “cult like”, lol. It’s like you really got to like problem solving, because when you get into AMD it’s an “enigma”. Like FarCry 5, you can take any path and it’s all tough. Had I not been a diagnostic tech in the auto industry, I would’ve thrown the towel in long ago. When I get hit with a problem I can’t quit, it’s not in my blood.
except a Rubik’s cube, forget that thing!

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Sorry for the late reply. There’s really a lot to unpack but I think your trubleshooting is very well done and I didn’t think about that because you’ve been pretty specific about the issue so I thought you had tried almost everything.

Regarding the 4101 warning I’ve been experiencing sometimes, not in games anymore but in Chrome for example. Reading online many people say that’s common and can be due to defective RAM, but also it’s due to Microsoft doing shit in the background changing the file responsible for the error and can be resolved also changing a registry value to increase a delay that should solve the issue.

The other errors you’re talking about were surely due to the RAM erroring out at 3733.

Also the problem with Ryzen and high speed RAM is that it’s linked deeply to the CPU architecture so getting 3800+ stable it’s very difficult because it impacts many other parts.

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what PSU do you have, VRM shouldn’t matter much for a 3600x, I think you’re more likely to have a bad/bad quality PSU

also try not to have ram above 3600mhz, and you can try putting ram at 1.4v

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Sorry for lengthy, complex responses. I have a habit of getting too technical or wordy. Even 4101 must’ve been related to 3733/1866 IF. At 3600/1800 IF the errors have disappeared. Due to my RAM timings, I took a zero performance hit backing the speed down. The settings actually increased the RAM read/write/copy score, FPS was unaffected. Reason for custom timings is a moderate gain in overall performance of 20 FPS in most titles and at least 15% in benchmarks. Real world feel is a super snappy, Intel type bang.

Yes, RAM speed/timings and the IF affect a lot like the PCIe lanes, SSD, the entire system basically. One bad move and usually it’s noticeable right away. Like Memtest will fail, or you’ll get a BSOD, something really visible and repeated all the time. This was “ok” at first and degraded over a few months to a noticeable issue. Very hard to track down when Prime 95 and all the other tests are passing without an error but try to game and blam.

Sigh, the “real world” is the best test anyone can use to find weird problems. These packaged tests only nip the surface, even the most comprehensive tests miss things or fail to trip an error. Games are a great test in my opinion. It’s the ultimate test since every part of the system gets used at some point, all stressed unevenly too, so the weakest link should get exposed.

I was looking at application faults and missed the hardware ones. Also I falsely believed the AMD “gurus” that these WHEA 19’s and such were from the GPU/driver for it. If it says “processor hierarchy error” or “processor core failure”, it is a hardware problem whether RAM, power delivery or a bad component.

There are some posts I found like the “Stig” saying the silicon will degrade on the Ryzen CPU’s over time and errors will come up later. As he has one 3600X he pushed a manual all core OC on for 6 months and then boom, it wouldn’t run at stock speed. I hit the proverbial wall and then it failed. Hopefully it stays ok at this speed. If it degrades further, I’ll look at replacing it with the 3700X or maybe a 5600X, the latter might be in stock by that time.

Thanks for replying. The others on here that replied have worked with me on this issue and it is resolved. What is “ghettobuster.bat”? “”.bat" is a batch file usually.