I think Tim said something like switching to linux is like migrating to canada when bad stuff happens at USA.
Oh I’m not saying we should rely on Proton forever especially for new games. But for Witcher 2 especially for a small studio (back then obviously) to even release a Linux version was basically just a nice gesture to people asking for it, just for some dickheads then crying about it not being a proper port. As a Dev, I would have no intention to ever do a port again either.
OK… so? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
What’s wrong with people who bought a game with native linux support being upset that the game they bought is no longer available to them?
No longer being able to natively play the game they bought isn’t upset for no reason.
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Shoulda read the TOS I guess. You buy a license to the game (and also not ownership), not a specific OS version.
I mean I get your point, but “not available” is simply not true. The game continues to be available on Steam for people that bought it. The only difference being that it’s now through Proton. It would be a completely different issue and certainly more understandable if it wasn’t available at all, but that’s not the case.
It would be different if you were to buy a specific OS release (like FF14 that has a Mac and a Windows version which are separate licenses), and then one being discontinued. But that’s not the case here.
Oh please, just say that you will endlessly apologize for the companies and be done with it. It was a dick move to drop an official port and throwing everything on proton is likely going to be even more of a nightmare to maintain later on than having it run native.
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I’m not apologising for anything, I’m just stating facts lol.
You see it as a dick move, I see it as completely reasonable given the a) very high maintenance cost for native ports that is just nowhere close to reasonable for the fraction of a userbase and b) the availability of (better) working alternatives. There was literally no reason to keep it around other then make the Linux people shut up.
And as I said I would be totally on your side if there wasn’t an alternative, but that’s not the case.
I couldn’t give a shit if it’s native or not as long as I can play the games I want. And if not, well so be it.
You aren’t though, you are viewing the breaking of the promise of support that was given on the product page in an overly favourable way and coating it with “pragmatism” while overstating the upkeep a linux port needs in comparison to the windows one. Steam Linux ships with fixed libs for a reason.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHAHAHAHAAHA best joke I heard in a while.
Like seriously, have you actually tried this? Especially for older games? I suppose not because otherwise you wouldn’t say that.
The Steam runtime is not going to help you there.
I’ll also (again) refer you to my post from the beginning of the year:
And there’s even one more to add to the list: Rise of the Tomb Raider’s native linux release is an absolute nightmare to play (and migrating to Proton is not an option because again the save files are not compatible). Constant crashes when just loading saves, to the point that it crashes other applications, which should be a nono. The game runs with a debugger attached for whatever reason, it feels like a beta.
They are all supposed to run in the Steam Runtime, but it’s just not working out for older titles.
It is not overstated though. They were getting constant reports from people having broken RL installs on their exotic systems, while the game “just worked” under Windows and Proton. The upkeep cost is simply not worth it, moreso even when there is a free alternative provided by Steam, the platform you’re already selling on.
I don’t know about the “promise” but my guess is they didn’t literally state there’s going to be a Linux version forever, because that would be stupid.
Do you get EpicStore Credit per line? In any case, yes 100% of native games have worked for me while even now proton and WINE can be a crapshoot where I have to spend a good amount of time trying out the various arcane proton configuration commands.
You keep using that excuse but even if I accept your assertion it doesn’t change the fact that ripping out promised platform support will rightly get you pissed people. And no I don’t care what some TOS or EULA says about what you can and cannot expect.
Man I wish, gotta call up Timmy for that (I have him on speed dial obviously), thanks for the suggestions.
I’m just stating my experiences here, not sure what’s so hard to understand about that but OK. And for the record my Proton experiences have been the exact opposite. Install and go, no config needed.
Well, then, have fun with future contracts.
And as I said, I get your point about being pissed, but the fact is it is still supported, just by Steam, through Proton. It’s not like they yanked the game for you completely (which again I would totally understand being actually pissed about) or put in “anti-Linux” measures.
I assume you are aware that this
Is in direct contradiction to this?
Every game that is not native undermines the new games are always native future. You may not care, or you may not find the cost worth it. Fair enough. But if everyone writes for Proton then everyone writes for Proton then you never reach escape velocity and nothing will ever chance.
Note, I do agree in this particular instance cutting native was the right move for the devs. Just saying if native is to become the future more devs need to go native.
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Yes, but also see the context of the second quote. That was in the context of “doing your best but still getting sh*t on”. If I was doing my best as a dev to bring it to people that asked for it, I would have no motivation to do it again with that kind of reaction. Context is important here 
I do care, which is why I said we need alternative distribution mechanisms then what we currently have. Current native ports tend to break after a while when not maintained (see my list earlier), so we need distribution via the aforementioned containers or otherwise. Something that remains stable after release anyway (i.e. something that ensures that stuff doesn’t just randomly break when not maintained). How that is done is not really important, but containerformats would probably be the easiest to implement.
And maybe that will also bring native Rocket League back when it doesn’t require constant maintenance so it doesn’t break.
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Actually, we are more or less on the same page here. Just a few rambling thoughts:
What is the reason that it just works in Windows? Because all dependencies are bundled with the game, essentially. Even DirectX.
This is why you as a game dev support specific distro releases, and given the current landscape, these should be boiled down to a few supported distros. Looking at the landscape most people who game run either Ubuntu (with flavors), Pop!_OS, Mint, Fedora or Manjaro. Of these the deb based distros are in absolute majority, hence it makes sense to cater for Ubuntu first and foremost. Supporting Ubuntu, Pop and Mint as a bare minimum would be a viable path.
But like you say, even then you still need to test with new versions and it is pretty hard to really make a game stay supported indefinitely. At some point one must cut the rope.
One of the bigger things holding Linux gaming back as of now is the reliance of 32 bit libraries though… If older games could be repacked in a Virtual machine with Proton and a 200-300 MB minimal Linux dist then we could rid that completely, eventually. Of course, that requires an APU + GPU VFIO passthrough combo to run smooth for any AAA released 2005+.
Ironically, today with Yocto Linux it would be dirt simple to make said minimalist OS and support a decent experience from a VM… Hmmmmm… I wonder if there would be any interest for that with gaming companies?
Yes, which is why AppImage/Flatpak/Snap would behave the same, as they can ship their own fixed version that they know guaranteed will work.
Right, and that is the path Steam took initially. If you look at games with native Linux versions, they all support Ubuntu natively. However, from what I’ve seen the support is still officially only Ubuntu 16.04 LTS (which is now even EOL) or maybe 18.04 LTS.
And that was what I mentioned in the linked post too. It will probably still work on those, bot noone will keep a 5-year-old distro release around for the handful of Linux native games. The easier route there is actually running the Windows version via Proton instead (which is what I did for Deus Ex Mankind Divided and Undertale). I’m not saying that’s a good thing, on the contrary, I’d much rather have not done that, but it was simply less headache.
Here’s hoping that this situation will improve with the new SteamOS release and the Steam Deck since it’s Arch based (even if modified).
I’m not sure modern games really rely on 32 bit that much anymore? And if they do it’s probably the same case on windows.
But anyway, why would that hold anything back? As long as the 32 bit libs are available (which they are on pretty much any distro?) where’s the issue in that? What am I missing here?
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On a back-to-topic note…
BattlEye is also on board:
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@wendell We would love to watch some content from you and the situation is ripe for your take.
Please?
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One thing to mention is that the best anti-cheat systems need to be in the kernel, probably using code signing, and would be quite intrusive.
Without invasive kernel modules or signed and non-tainted kernels this will obviously leave some quite obvious ways to cheat on Linux:
E.g. write a kernel module that directly manipulates memory, maybe even changing the memory mapping when an anti-cheat program looks at it.
I don’t want to run my anti-cheat in the kernel or be forced to use old signed kernels, and also it still would be very ineffective, there are still many ways you can cheat even if no modified(“user-signed/unsigned”) code is run on the client machine at all, e.g. externally generated keyboard/mouse inputs, virtual machines, network-based attacks, etc.
The most a good anti-cheat can do is scan for the obvious: Running processes, (on Windows) system hooks, hardware IDs, (on Linux) LD preloading, library/applications hashes, etc.
Maybe we’ll see a return of SteamOS or something for a fully signed boot for anti-cheat. That would be interesting.
Even if everything is a dumpsterfire in 2022, that’s progress we didn’t have in years. Coming year will be glorious. I personally don’t play any games that require anti-cheat software, but getting support for the games that have highest popularity is always a good thing.
If you check Proton DB website, the top games and their rating will change dramatically. 95% running fine and now the last percents get covered by adding the big multiplayer titles.
I think this thread demonstrates the fanboy-ism that drives a good portion of the anti-Linux sentiment. Technical decisions being interpreted as “US” vs. “THEM”.
Having said that, I just cold turkey quit anything that doesn’t work on Linux. Hey it’s not much but they will not get my money.
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