Dual actuator HDDs - are they here to stay?

Hey everyone, I’ve got to get something off my chest about this thread as its a great example of what not to do. I read through the whole damn thing, and honestly, it was exhausting. It was obvious by like the third post that no one was going to convince anyone else, yet it ballooned into a 100-post slugfest. Why does it take so long to just agree to disagree and move on? I’m not here to attack anyone… I’m really not… but I think we need to talk about this, because it’s bigger than just one person or one thread.

What I’m seeing on this forum, especially in the last few years, is that the following three things happen in most threads where people have very different views, and they want to go a different direction than is bog standard.

  1. The Argument Went Nowhere Fast
    Three posts in, it was clear: no one was budging. But instead of calling it a day, the debate dragged on, piling up dozens of repetitive posts. It didn’t make anyone’s point stronger… it just made the thread a chore to sift through. If we can see early on that we’re not going to agree, why not just say, “Cool, we see it differentll, And here are some suggestions to help you achieve what you want to do." Wasting energy on a stalemate doesn’t help anyone. If you can’t see that that’s exactly what occurred in this thread, then you need to reread it and see just how exhausting it is to read from someone who wasn’t involved in it and just stumbled upon it.

  2. The Original Question Got Buried
    Let’s go back to the top of that thread. The OP asked: “Hey, I found these HDD SKUs… are these products likely to stick around a bit?” That’s it. It was a straightforward question about availability, not a cry for help choosing between HDDs and SSDs. To me, it reads like someone saying, “I want to keep buying these HDDs… will they be around?” Nowhere did they say, “Please convince me to switch to SSDs.” Yet somehow, that’s where the thread went, and the actual question got drowned out in the noise. We owe it to each other to stick to what’s being asked instead of hijacking posts with our own agendas.

  3. This Shit Drives People Away
    You ever wonder why participation around here is so low? Stuff like this is why. It’s continuously talked about by long-term members and by people who sometimes sit in the lounge and by people on the discord and so on and so forth that this is what happens when they ask a simple question on this forum. When someone asks a simple question and gets hit with a wall of arguing… especially about something they didn’t even ask… it’s intimidating as hell For new people, and it’s certainly just so annoying to the point where the older people are apathetic and don’t really participate as much. Who wants to post when they’re worried their thread will turn into a battleground? New folks might see that and think, “Nah, I’ll figure it out somewhere else.” And honestly, can you blame them? We’re pushing people out by turning discussions into pissing contests over who’s right. And you can dismiss this as, well, this is the internet, you should be used to that. And I say sure, I am used to it. But just because the internet is shittier, doesn’t mean we need to make it shittier in our place we hang out and call home… That just doesn’t make sense. That’s shitting where you eat.

I’m not defending the OP or taking sides on HDDs versus SSDs… I don’t give a damn about that. My point is, if someone’s set on using HDDs and believes in them, who the hell cares? Let them do their thing. Our job isn’t to force our opinions down their throat; it’s to help them find what they need. If they’re asking about dual actuator HDDs, give them options, not a lecture. Answer the question that’s there, not the one you wish they’d asked. I’m not saying dont participate as much as you want to your hearts content either. Or that you can’t bring up a better suggestion, but it is pretty abundantly clear after a couple posts and replies that, hey, that’s not the direction someone wants to go, then reevaluate your response and help them. That’s what we’re here to do on this forum.

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If wertigon were any sort of agent provocateur or bot, his account would have been suspended by now. The leadership team has no intention of suspending anyone in this thread, but we have been keeping an eye on it due to the volume of flags coming from it.

I’ve personally had a couple of disagreements with him, but let me be clear: wertigon always believes in what he speaks and to the best of my knowledge, he’s just advocating for his positions on things, just like you are. As a member of staff, I always take personal opinions out of any moderation actions that are taken, and we all hold ourselves accountable by communicating with other staff about it.

I’m not interested in a debate about this, as it doesn’t pertain to the original topic of the thread; if you two want to continue that discussion, I recommend you take it to DMs.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I mean back to the original question by the OP, and also the post by @Exard3k. I am also rather conservative in choosing my backup media (HDDs, CMR, always copy to another disk…), both for peace of mind and (for my purposes) best bang for the buck.
I can see dual actuator drives being attractive for HDDs 20 TB and up, double the data rate is nice to have when backing up a lot of GB, and that might be of interest if there is no more bay left in one’s NAS or DAS. I went the - for me -cheaper route and got myself another eight bay enclosure and some more regular HDDs. As for “will dual actuators stick around?” - I’m not sure. As HAMR (or MAMR) drives finally become more mainstream, I wonder if any of the three - Seagate, WD, Toshiba- will deem the extra costs of having twice the number of such actuators per HDD be acceptable for their customers. HAMR actuators are significantly more expensive than standard ones.

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I think the writing might be on the wall. WD did the HS760 and stopped. Seagate followed the 2X14 with 2X18 but there’s no 2X20 or 2X24.

Move to ignore for chronic inability to engage constructively.

I totally understand this, I would also be interested in this for my NAS. As I have limited bays and I don’t want to extend outside of the enclosure that I have had for the past 8 years. It already has 9 bays. Since I do full system backups; sometimes I have a terabyte or two to back up.

I think the main concern is whether you are upgrading single drives to dual actuator or replacing everything with them (or building a new server all together). I don’t mind DA drives if you build from scratch, but upgrading or switching to them…making the most of every bay available? not sure.

The benefit is having more block devices available, allowing for more storage efficiency for a given amount of (limited) bays. With 8 bays you probably go for 6+2 parity RAID/EC setup. With dual actuators, you get much more flexibility with two block devices per physical HDD without compromising on IOPS/device.

For me, using ZFS or Ceph, 8 bays equals around 1-2GB/s of sequential “backup” workload. That’s fast. And when utilizing incremental backup strategies, this is more performance I ever need…cron job backing up and committing 1-2TB every sunday night. It’s fast. Sequential HDD speed with 8 bays is more than most networks can handle. Rsync and random IO is a different beast.

HDD performance and IOPS are important if you read and write stuff regularly. I don’t. I keep my HDD usage to “yeah when cache fails, bother those drives”.

With my current setup, I won’t see HDDs running at 25% IOPS as limiting in any way. Treat HDDs as cold storage and use SSDs and caching to cover most storage needs.

HDDs are slow and will always remain slow. Their IOPS rely on the amount of physical revolutions of the platters…people cranked this up to 15k RPM and they got wrecked by 1st gen SSDs.

TLDR;

Use dual actuator to get double the block devices/LUNs and improve storage efficiency or be more creative on you raid/EC config without compromising IOPS or using jank partitioning schemes. They are still HDDs, so don’t expect them to be fast or faster, the IOPS will still be trash compared to the SSD you bought for 10 bucks at a gas station.
Are DA better? yes, you got more options and possibly IOPS (which may not matter at all) but not for me when I consider the additional price.

Fresh server all new drives and/or limited bays? best use case imho. Certainly a better take on price premium than those expensive “NAS certified” drives (don’t buy those). You actually get something with DA drives.

p.s.: I consider HDDs and storage in general to be commodity hardware and price premium has to be justified.
We don’t need premium storage in the age of software defined storage, because scalability and software will solve all/most of the deficits commodity storage has. Buy cheap, be smart or use smart filesystems/storage like ZFS or Ceph or whatever you prefer.