Dislike of Windows, am I missing something?

Operating Systems & Open Source Windows
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The 2RU doing the Ashes Cricket test match decided to try install windows 11 on air today…. Fun!

we use group policies, have scripts, power shell, registry hacks… Nothing will keep MS from resetting all of these the second a client installs a single scheduled update. Even the Pro versions of windows are becoming unreliable as a mission critical OS.

This practice of me picking a time for a scheduled update overwriting all of the things I had disabled specifically was on of the main reasons I ditched windows a few years ago.

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On 7 and 8, Windows was generally quite stable for me. I can count on one hand the number of BSODs I got on those two OSs (excluding failing hardware).

Somehow, 10 seemed to introduce updates that would cause frequent BSODs until I uninstalled them at least twice a year. Reinstalling the updates usually worked, except when it didn’t, which meant all I could do was boot an Ubuntu USB, make a VHD of the drive, and reinstall Windows. This was actually what made me cave and go back to Linux - I was tired of reinstalling Windows.

The forced updates were also annoying, although I did find a good solution to it, and I recommend it to anyone using 10: Reboot-Blocker - Ulrich Decker Software

The nagging to use Edge, etc is pretty terrible, and it has led to more than a few calls from my mom. I’m considering recommending a Mac for her next computer just so I don’t have to deal with “Windows is saying I need to use Edge because Chrome is insecure? Has it been hacked?”

But perhaps my greatest hatred of Windows is a fairly minor one, but it shows how little MS cares about end users.

Have you ever tried to rename, move, or delete a file, only to be told the file is in use?

Have you then gone into Process Explorer, only to find that a process never released it (the process might no longer be running, even), and you can either force-release it from there or reboot?

I’d bet that every Windows user has encountered this error at some point, but maybe 2% have actually used Process Explorer to release the handle.

Anyway, I have an old computer running Mac OS 9 (not OS X - OS 9; it came out in 1999). On classic Mac OS, you can rename, move, and delete files in use by applications, and it’s perfectly fine. You can straight up delete running programs and it won’t break anything. That is unthinkable on Windows, yet Apple has had this figured out for over two decades (probably even longer but I don’t have any older Macs to test that on), and I can do the same on Linux.

Imagine if Microsoft cared enough to fix this longstanding annoyance.

Sadly, it will never happen. Not just because of backwards compatibility, but also because it’s something that isn’t causing them to lose money, much the same way that MS did not care about security until it became a legitimate threat to the business in the XP days. If they did a greenfield OS, I guarantee they wouldn’t bother addressing this unless they based it off of Linux or another OS that has saner file handling.

After going back to Linux, it’s amazing just how much I was missing out on. And thanks to Valve’s efforts with Proton, all the games I regularly play run just fine.

Edit: From what I’ve read about MS, a lot of potential improvements to their products just never happen because teams are reluctant to take on any issues not prioritized by their managers. What this means is that, while in Linux land minor performance improvements are celebrated, the only chance performance improvements have to get accepted at MS is if it’s huge, especially due to the way incentives are structured. Code that you don’t maintain is difficult to have patches accepted for at MS, which really quashes any attempts at improving things for the sake of improving things.

This is why you see things like O(n^2), again, now in WMI | Random ASCII – tech blog of Bruce Dawson

(The bug the author filed was closed by MS basically saying “you’re holding it wrong” but unlike Apple, they didn’t even have the courtesy to say how to use it properly…)

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I know that’s not exactly what you meant. What you said basically amounts to “I’m having a good experience with Windows 10 so far. Maybe the anti-Windows sentiment you Linux/ex-Windows users keep sprouting is outdated?”

It is an entirely reasonable thing to ask people to consider re-assessing their stance towards something, especially if your personal experience leads you to a substantially different conclusion.

The problem is that you aren’t qualified.

Respectfully: If you don’t play with your OS, and you don’t care about the OS, then you are in no position to judge or critique those that DO play with their OS, and DO care about it.

Those who care deeply about operating systems hold them to much, much, much higher standards than those who don’t. If your criteria for a “good OS” is merely that it launches CS:GO 10 times in a row without crashing, or that ProgramX runs on it, then you are nothing more than a normie — a computer user who has no interest in or skill with operating systems per se. You care about apps, not operating systems. Your value system is completely different to someone who abandoned Windows because of [reasons]. Linux users actually care about operating systems, or they wouldn’t be Linux users.

Windows 10 is a clusterfuck of epic proportions for anyone who appreciates good architecture, quality code, security, privacy, or subscribes to the concept of Free and Open Source Software (FOSS). Those are values that do not get taught at university. If you don’t already have them, then a Computer Science degree will not instil them in you. You’ll just rack up a lot of debt and still not care about operating systems.

May I suggest an Information Technology degree instead? You get to specialise in applications — something you do care about — and the employment prospects are better.

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Had Windows 7, then there was an update when I went to bed, woke up to Window 10. Worked for awhile then it it died, re-installed from an ISO I got from Microsoft, went a few updates then it died. Re-installed and after a few months later it killed it’s own boot loader, re-installed and it auto installed AMD drivers that didn’t work so installed AMD drivers and when I went to reboot the machine there was an update, back to SAFE MODE… it had re-installed the broken AMD drivers. Couldn’t get the drivers to work so had to re-install Windows 10, after a few more problems went back to Linux. There is the same kind of history going all the way back to Windows XP. Was funny though watching my friend go postal on Windows XP, un-installing everything that didn’t need to be installed and re-writing the registry, iirc he got the installs to under 400MB’s a few times.

Figure I’ve been using Linux since around 2004 and 99% of my issues were ones I created. That and having a Ryzen 9 3950x lets me dual boot Gentoo, MAKEOPTS="-j30" is somewhat faster than when I used an AMD Athlon XP 3200+. Only game I played that doesn’t work on Linux was BDO, the software I use was mostly from Linux in the first place.

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I’ve come to LOATHE W10… Very close in vitriol TILT to Vista [flagrant KDE knockoff]
Between the forced updates, which has included instances of bricking the OS
The intrusiveness, even when you entertain turning off ALL telemetry options
The progressively aggressive stance, of pushing you to their cloud-based apps
Shoveling programs and background overhead, that not only you didn’t want
But in hosting some, that cannot be uninstalled/modified
Screwing the pooch, when it comes to AMDs larger core count CPUs-
They’ve had a few years (+) playtime, only to STILL haven’t worked out the scheduler

W7 was better times… XP remains the best, that I’ve experienced out of MS

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It is misunderstood for the most part. It’s not a hate towards Windows as a product but camouflaged hate for Microsoft as a company.

Yep.

Thing you are describing is not a product problem, or a tool problem, or a usability problem.
Linux also can be unstable but the platform as a whole does not generate as much hate as Windows. Why?

Because Windows hate it is a social problem, a relationship problem and a trust problem. And since as you said you are blind to it - than you just don’t get it. Sorry for being blunt.

If you want to understand this you need to create relationship perception model through which you will be able to see that kind of issues. You can create that mental tools yourself or ask for help.

Basically relationship is how you maintain balance in the way you treat others and how others are treating you. Relationships have different forms - there are personal ones and business ones.

When you purchase an OS product from Microsoft you create social contract that is based on subconscious relationship framework that exists and spans across millennia of human evolution.
If a party you made deal with is breaking such obligation it is in human nature to loose trust with this party. If you don’t - you are going to be exploited. And nobody cares if you are just naive or have a psychological problem.

Unfortunately this lack of trust is fueled by a lot of minor or obscure things that Microsoft is doing to abuse said contract.
Among others:

  • forced updates
  • bloatware
  • forcing online user account
  • telemetry
  • lack of ownership
  • lack of development transparency
  • forcing unwanted features
  • forcing proprietary tech which always kills innovation
  • …

Calling all of this an ideology is a semantic scapegoat so you don’t have to deal with the consequences of being exploited.

I have good news for you. Perception is based on brain neuroplasticity and you can change your worldview if you want. In the end you are responsible for how you see reality that surrounds you.

As others said learn a little when it comes to history. You can search for Microsoft class action lawsuit that took place around 2000 and watch Bill Gates interrogation video.

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My hatred of windows (and I go back to DOS 3.3/ Windows 3.1) is because they keep adding things or changing things in ways I don’t want and doing nothing to fix the problems that exist.

They also use the wrong text format, the wrong path separators, stupid path length limits, stupid filesystem locking problems and the security/stability of the box is totally at the mercy of whatever random driver vendors you have to deal with.

That’s the most of it. Well, that and security is a complete joke.

Either Linux or macOS is just far less painful to deal with.

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At seems to go like this:

Assertation: Linux is good!
Examination: Is Windows Linux?
Answer: Windows is not Linux.
Analysis: Windows is not Linux therefore it cannot be good!
Conclusion: Windows is bad.

That’s pretty much how I see these arguments against and reasons to dislike.

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Thanks for replying to the thread. Hugely value everyone’s opinions.

I’m happy with doing computer science over IT. I have no interest in doing tech support for people. My interests lie in the field of intelligent machines and machine learning/AI.

I want to see how close we can take a machine to being sentient.

It’s not that I don’t care about operating systems it is more that my interests are in using computer languages to make machines perform functions based on input.

I have a computer with Windows on it, I have one with Mac OS and now have one with arch Linux that I look forward to learning. Currently I use Windows and Mac OS side by side on two seperate machines on my desk will now add Linux to that with a 3rd machine.

I love everyone’s replies. I don’t take these kinds of discussions personally I ask these questions because I want to open my eyes to things that I may not be seeing so as to get a broad view of perspectives.

While I have liked computers most of my life I really hit the deep end after two things happened, one was building my new PC which just brought my fascination back after being burnt out with tech for a while. The other was encountering a problem with a machine at my work and the problem was an issues involving the way the machine was interrupting the code required to make it run. Once I peaked into that rabbit hole I became completely fascinated by the possibilities of artificial intelligence.

I like to have videos playing while I’m doing things, interviews, podcast type one, documentaries. I am slowly going through every Linus Torvalds interview on YouTube. I must admit I agree with a great deal of what he says regarding computers.

It’s like anything in life. Personal preference plays a big part in so many things.

I used to love photography but got burnt out on it and left it behind. While I loved the gear as much as anyone I placed more importance on the photograph, the gear was just what I used to make it.

In some ways I feel the same way about computers in that for me it’s about what can a computer allow me to do. A tool to allow me to create something.

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i love how conversations about operating systems quickly turn into debates bordering into theology.

i must state also, that my like for windows 10 comes from years of me figuring out how to beat it into a reasonably submissive condition. using windows 10 PRO, local accounts, registry and policy edits, gui customization, and it is *reasonably * well behaved. (gaining access to the multitude of redundant control panels is still a cluster)

Linux, rather you start from a pre-rolled desktop distro, or a barebones net install, you can make it pretty much anything you want, as long as you have the time to invest.

MAC OS, (i have attempted 9 and several flavors of X) you just take it as it is. thats it. Heck even just THEMES are a relatively new thing for MAC OS. Weirdly it is not the actual GUI that bothers me, my desktop linux uses E16 and looks nearly identical to newer OSX. Mostly its the lack of choice in how things are done and WHAT things can be done. if you do not want to do it our way, well, install linux or windows.

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It’s ok for it to go the theology route as it’s important to a lot of people. My dad for example wouldn’t buy from one particular company because of something they did where as I was more about the quality of the product. Just different perspectives.

Also regarding the second paragraph, windows 10 pro definitely makes a difference I am finding. When I left windows originally I was on home version. Pro is a lot better.

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I do want to take the time to thank everyone for taking the time to take part in the discussion. We may not and don’t have to agree, but that is what makes a discussion great, lots of opinions where we can all learn from each other.

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see, other platforms do not require beating into submission. the fact that you will talk about that and then imply others have so religion is a bit…. one-sided.

curious to know specifically what you think you can not do on macos that is not gui related.

mac ports/home brew exists and it has powerful scripting/automation support.

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as an interface to work, all the platforms do literally the same thing. i can access my servers via SSH, and web browser. Shell scripting is similar in all cases. all systems have some sort of code-centric text editor.

the things that i am talking about are specific to each OS. ie:

linux: your ‘start menu’ can be anywhere, and have literally anything you can imagine on it. i have 1 click links that open RDP sessions set up in my linux start menu, that opens when i left click the desktop anywhere. Root terminal, SSH, multi-user, all NATIVE.

Windows: with some registry edits and knowing a fair amount about where user folders are hidden, mostly, similar things can be done. RDP shortcuts are SUPER easy (duh). startup can still be controlled, jobs can processed at login. Terminal, SSH, multi-user… well, yes.

OSX: customization of the gui is basically NOPE! RDP is a solid barely. custom shortcuts that do magic, well it is possible, but it makes the windows set up look easy. heck even getting an activity monitor found, or getting the terminal open and a shortcut made somewhere sane, caused me to reach for the bourbon.

i want my OS to work and look the way i work. i should not have to re-learn a task process to function on a new OS. OSX is like being an auto mechanic but everyone in the shop has the same tool box with the same tools.

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uh… the microsoft remote desktop app on macOS is better than on windows imho. credentials saving is way way better, history/bookmark support, etc.

what’s barely about it?

shortcuts or symlinks work
scheduling jobs can be done either via cron or calendar or monitored folder trivially

you may not want to learn how to do something on a new platform but you had to do that and more in windows to do so

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I mean, in a lot of ways i feel the same about windows. I personally don’t care that much about the graphical interface, i mostly am working in a terminal or a web browser so who cares where the start menu is or how magic shortcuts work. In my case i like the similarities of osx to my preferred platform of linux and have to google how to do every little thing i want to do on windows but 99% of the time on OSX I can just rely on my linux knowledge. In fact the things that you said about having to re-learn a task process to function on a new OS is windows fault, not OSX or linux’s. OSX and linux are *nix operating systems so based on unix principles that were around before dos let alone windows were ever a thing. This also means they both followed POSIX standards to prevent the exact thing you’re describing. POSIX is the portable operating system standard and it basically is just a standard set of common tools that should be available across operating systems (or more accurately interfaces, the tools themselves are different code between OSX and linux but at their core you can use them in the same way).

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Thats the point i am making. The OSX gui is wierd, and i can’t change it. All the things under it are standard and i can do anything i want there. Why is the gui such a block of ice?

I don’t like the OSX rdp app, for basically that same reason. It is a standard thing that linux and windows do, that MAC wrapped a new gui around. Y THO?

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Oh, the why for RDP is microsofts fault again. RDP is a microsoft protocol and microsoft only really made it for mac because of the anti-trust lawsuits back in the day. Macs native screen sharing is done with vnc and actually works in a pretty standard way.

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Okay.
But some of us have been at this a very long time. We’ve seen some shit.

Like your father …

" … because of something they did … "
And Microsoft has a long history of just that. And that’s one reason I don’t use Windows.

And then like you …

" … about the quality of the product … "

Which again, Microsoft has a long history of it not being. One example is " supported add-on video cards" could be, were a serious paid in the butt to install. BSoD used to be a real and serious thing. Windows 10 is an example of many people ( not all ) having problems with it. Broken updates. Fixes for them that broke other things. Quality.

" … the theology route … "

But it’s not. It’s reality. It’s fact. It’s history. History of a company like your Dad has/had with. And a history of quality like you have. And it’s the history of both, that is still ongoing, that is the reason that many of us just won’t use it.

You choose to use Windows? That’s a choice you made based on YOUR experiences. Just like we have with ours. Only ours is based on decades of experience.

Use Windows? Please do. But understand why some of us don’t. And that we don’t hate Windows.

We just got tired of pissing into the wind.

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Sadly each of us can only have a perspective based on our own use cases in our lives. I really appreciate everyone’s opinion though.