Honestly, the thread kind of went off the rails a little bit. It went off in a few different directions.
Sure… give me sometime…
Yeah, I read it myself… I shouldn’t have mentioned UBI… I realize that it flew off the rails quite a lot… but It’ll try to tie them this weekend with a summary and clear explanation in the scope of pandemic…
Your mockups are good, don’t misunderstand me there.
For myself, everything so far lacks the technical details to make sense.
Details of cause are not part of a generalisation.
But you have to have those each time when you talk about the actual implementation and System(s).
I have the impression that most problems stem from you having a detailed particular system and implementation in your head, that you then generalise to explain it and then me trying to interpolate all the details back into it to then possibly implement it.
Complicated by many things,
Of cause I do interpolate different details onto the thing, your stile of writing, the Names given to things and you meandering through all of it.
That i’m not a native is another complication on my side and I don’t have the feeling that you are either.
And I guess all of that makes this not work for me at all.
Another impression I have is that you talk about a thing, some detail you haven’t explained jet comes into question and you respond with something along the lines of “that is not an issue , it is fixed in the implementation …”
Which does not even come close to an answer.
At least not for me.
And you do that multiple times not only to me I think.
My generalisation here is another issue, sorry for that, but I’m tired of this.
And it is not an issue to leave out details or explain them later, but I think you should improve that when and how substantially.
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I̶ ̶a̶m̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶c̶u̶s̶s̶ ̶t̶e̶c̶h̶n̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶d̶e̶t̶a̶i̶l̶s̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶.̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶a̶ ̶d̶e̶v̶e̶l̶o̶p̶e̶r̶?̶ ̶w̶h̶y̶ ̶d̶o̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶d̶e̶s̶p̶e̶r̶a̶t̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶n̶e̶e̶d̶ ̶t̶e̶c̶h̶n̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶d̶e̶t̶a̶i̶l̶ ̶s̶o̶m̶u̶c̶h̶?̶ ̶A̶ ̶g̶o̶o̶d̶ ̶s̶o̶f̶t̶w̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶a̶r̶c̶h̶i̶t̶e̶c̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶u̶n̶d̶e̶r̶s̶t̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶m̶m̶e̶d̶i̶a̶t̶e̶l̶y̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶m̶o̶c̶k̶-̶u̶p̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶w̶r̶i̶t̶i̶n̶g̶.̶.̶ ̶I̶ ̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶a̶d̶d̶e̶d̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶a̶n̶o̶t̶h̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶r̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶h̶a̶d̶ ̶t̶o̶n̶s̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶e̶c̶h̶n̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶d̶e̶t̶a̶i̶l̶s̶.̶
I must clarify that I have a scattered thoughts and I get derailed easily… I am also pretty dumb at reading others. I do not understand by reading well and I have to translate in my head… It greatly helps if you ask question like you would ask a 10 year old… very specific as in which part you don’t understand exactly?
I̶ ̶a̶m̶ ̶s̶o̶r̶r̶y̶.̶.̶ ̶p̶l̶e̶a̶s̶e̶ ̶g̶o̶.̶.̶ ̶:̶p̶r̶a̶y̶:̶
I am sorry… I get now what you are saying… you are looking at from point of implementing it… I didn’t think anyone could do this the way I am describing right away… you can possibly create a non privacy-first implementation but implementing this will require a great deal of technical engineering that I would love to discuss with you on separate thread.
It pretty easy for this to go off the rails. The amount of money spent on war vs basic health. Pretty much all governace across the plantel is at fault. Cause. We are trapped by electronics, manufacturing. food production and logistics and a wet ball. Cause greed.
And we are so deep into this swamp 
so to speak there is not a political backflip and bamboozle the unwasted mass’s because thier really hurting.
Which is what I really hate. We are one planet all locked in jail together and greed still rules.
Hay Im in a lucky country but this sucks. When its over it will switch back to economics growth vs other countries all up in the news.
If you live too watch it happen and most will. If there hospitals dont get over run 
Cause reasons above.
Sorry this thread got distracted in weird directions.
Getting back to the Corona topic, I like to expand on simulation a bit.
Assuming, If the implementation is right and works as expected and most people are following it… It will reduce uncertainty which is incredibly crucial for prediction. It’s like social-psychological immune response propagated from self organization with help of technology, we kinda become resilient to such things. And health researchers, epidemiologists, scientists and mathematicians have accurate data (anonymised obviously) to model state and movements based on real people.
Now you plot that data on the town and run simulation. Of Course other attributes will also have to be accounted for like town resources, number of health workers, hospitals, number of beds, emergency workers, emergency equipment like masks and ventilators, ambulances, safety equipment, medicines etc. You could simulate and predict scenarios in various degrees based on current status where it would be in a week or 2 with what sort of actions and success rate.
Accordingly you can also predict logistical requirements of things. This gives you time to start preparing for certain probable outcomes so may be if you are expecting 10,000 people to get infected with a chosen approach and you only have 6000 beds in town hospitals then may be use empty buildings and hotels for isolation and quarantine (this approach is being deployed where I stay). You can get the required equipment places there beforehand…
Now that simulation was at the time of outbreak… Imagine if you can actually simulate a large scale pandemic drill with participation of people. Participant can use a some kind device that accurately simulates flu with R0 of 3.5 and SI of 14 days. We generate a ton of insights from simulation that can be used to save a ton of lives and wealth when it actually happens. For example, if we knew the situation to be like this, we could educate and train people beforehand. We can place citizen responders as inactive agent who may be a gym trainer on regular days, they are chosen methodically by area population and type of disaster and trained accordingly, they will be equipped with enough resources to cater area people in the case of emergencies.
With drills simulation like that, you can actually create opportunities to innovate in such areas. Preparing for disaster is hardly a profitable proposition and largely ignored by investors and businesses. But with result of simulation studies and probability of occurring and then cost involved in unpreparedness, you make the argument for grant or funding for innovation in these areas.
It again all ties to motivation to solve problems and innovate… with right motivation, a lot of things can be produced at much cheaper rate that otherwise costs a ton while in the middle of dealing with disasters.
We can actually install survival kits in every house just like a fire extinguisher. The kit can have a few heavy duty masks for each member of family, thermometers, some testing kit and medical kit, hand sanitizer, swabs and containers etc. Now this survival kit could be for multiple types of disaster and not only pandemic. It could have a digital band of some sort that is used in emergencies to track vitals and position so responders can help you in case of let’s say earthquake. You get the idea…
i’m wondering how difficult it would be to come up with a new license agreement that holds those who store and distribute the data accountable for the way they do it.
I don’t want to speculate on how effective it would be just yet; but it would at least address things like storage of passwords and encryption keys in plain text, and using the data outside its’ intended purpose.
It would be nice to address those particular vulnerabilities as well as practical.
I am not completely sure If I understand the question. but from what I got. You are asking what will be the licensing types of using data in third party services.
There could be various approaches. But I would personally prefer for privacy first approach means of data handling.
So all data-points are kinda self-aware of its purpose. Like data aware bot. For example, personal detail like your blood type is self aware bot and security, validation and licensing are built into it. it won’t be accessible until licensing agreement is not met by the receiving party. It creates a chain of interactions so you know where it’s being used or has been used. it will automatically monetize for its value depending on agreement type.
In privacy-first system, data is not just data, It will have states and memory of all its past states, interactions/transactions etc. it should be able to validate and protect itself from misusing it. Even the licensing could be smart that is attached to the data-point and negotiate on your behalf to monetize.
Above method can be used when data is leaving your SelfAI bound to third party. But if service is coming inside your SelfAI bound then SelfAI is managing all aspects of your data point like license, security, access etc.
I know, it sounds science fiction but it is arguably possible. System framework needs to be designed around such concepts then data protection becomes far easy. and if someone simply copies the data-points and stores in separate database then any service in this system will not recognize those as valid data-points.
What I gather is that you are proposing a closed system; where the third party service is unified with the third person software application?
I am not sure I am proposing a closed system, I am just thinking a way to validate origin and state of data using some framework in which data objects have identity attached to it.
Obviously it doesn’t apply to all kinds of data except important sensitive data like personal details, medical records or time-series data of someones body temperature.
Not sure I understand… But third party service probably need to follow the privacy standards of the framework, so services need to be designed that way.
So it’s actually 3 things that work together…
A framework for Logistics of Intelligence Management: This framework implements privacy-first approach and manages data and intelligence we discussed above… Then you have network like Attention network that connects us all and then you have Platform where simulation studies are conducted…
In abstraction term, all abstractions are managed in logistics of intelligence management, abstractions are connected through attention network/ubi network and abstractions are tested and simulated on simulation platform…
all in all what you are proposing sounds like a good idea and can be beneficial, But there is always someone who will abuse the system for their personal profit.
I do not trust any cloud service or any off site service that I do not have total control over for storing sensitive information even if it is encrypted.
once you store any info in the cloud it no longer belongs to you regardless of what they say.
being a locksmith security is a specialty and its surprising how many ways there are to bypass security systems.
being able to design your own system is a gift, But it is only as good as your ability to conceal the system even from skilled observers.
the same can be said to your online storage you can vpn to a server but once your data is there it may be vulnerable to hackers. and unethical employees of said companies.
think about it you put your info (email address, name, address and phone number in when you register for something) then someone decides to sell your info to a spammer, and the shit rolls down hill after that.
they make money off of your info and you get spam bombed numerous times.
better effort can be used in solving the logistics nightmares that are making things difficult for doctors, police, first responders, and such.
the guy trying to keep information routed to the correct agencies such as where horded supplies were stored and where they are needed the most, and how to get them there.
and on that note of horded supplies! the largest number of people buying massive amounts is not panic buying, But an effort to make themselves rich by price gouging others, and that is totally despicable.
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It would seem that properly anonymizing the data would significantly reduce the ways that it could be misused. The third person bot seems to be a good solution for that; though not a bulletproof one.
There’s a lot of data out there to be gobbled up and it can be correlated. Tracking has some pretty clever tricks up its’ sleeve; and every connection has a traceable path to an isp address, that can be correlated with an individual by data from some other service.
Even if cloud services are where the buck stops, improper security hygiene can still be a problem too.
It’s not so much the model that I’m concerned about. It’s the environment that it is being released into.
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Cloud service infrastructure can be rented while cloudbox that stores your instance can be owned. It’s more about how it’s implemented. No sneaking in your data and intelligence is allowed by the system design. It’s embedded in the fundamental value structure of the system itself as in accountability, meaning no one can just take someone else’s data/intelligence for their profit.
I don’t understand it… y̶o̶u̶ ̶m̶e̶a̶n̶ ̶I̶ ̶s̶h̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶h̶i̶d̶e̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶s̶e̶ ̶i̶d̶e̶a̶s̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶p̶e̶o̶p̶l̶e̶?̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶a̶c̶h̶i̶e̶v̶e̶?̶ ̶
That’s total sickness…
I want to address it and expand some of my points earlier so it doesn’t create confusion…
People can follow the path if they are informed to see the paths, I didn’t mean force them to follow certain path, that’s Draconian… I meant creating opportunity of common grounds by seeing things clearly, so people’s motivations automatically aligned to path of general common good… for example a ton of thing that was considered standard practice in old days could be considered draconian today so we are making progress but very ineffective which has its cost…
Privacy and security is the main issue preventing such systems to exist and for good reasons. I don’t want to see China like implementation where they have stupid things social points system and shit. I need to clarify that It’s absolutely nothing like that… In fact if we didn’t implement a system built around individual security then we will eventually end up with something like China has. and it’s dangerous in ways we can’t yet understand… it’s already starting to appear even in my country… These so called new age innovators are some of the shittiest people with the worst kind of bullshit ideas on the planet… If sensible people didn’t do anything then it’s as good as watching your house burn down…
You participate and contribute only in those abstractions you want to support and get good return from, but people aren’t always informed enough to know what they must support. That’s the main thing this system solves for people, it presents informed options and users can make informed choices. If you can’t find options that suites you then create your abstraction as option and test and vett it with participation on simulation platform backed in science and statistics and make your argument with result of your simulation studies…
One way to think about it, we have limited space and resources to accommodate all the ideas in our reality. so we have to be careful what ideas are worth fetching in real world. and to counter that, we need an abstraction or simulation platform that validates the worthiness of ideas independent of its source. So people don’t just use their influence to push shitty ideas… and conducted using participation with real people with scientific process and not because it’s a genius pitch and profitable for investors. as I said earlier that abstractions have tendency to eat into other abstractions, we must be at least sure to some degree that it doesn’t eat into essential rights of the people. That’s why we need abstraction platform is where you do ideation, modeling, simulation to build references, generate results that will aid to our decision-making process because no matter how smart and educated you are, your judgement could still be ridiculously flawed.
It effectively changes attention seeking economy to problem solving economy and our behaviors will change with that.
Of course you could always participate in something for great returns you but also is damaging to collective abstraction for example climate. then sustainability value structure discourages it. it doesn’t force you to comply with it, but it sets a reference and benchmarks to you and people are aware of of risks you might be creating.
You can make an argument that smokers are aware of the risks yet they smoke. I would say that they are not, at least not to extent that creates enough motivation to leave it or find alternatives. First thing is to know why they smoke and if they want to stop, may be if they get insights and implications of smoking on personal level that they can connect to with their own health and other things…
If they want to stop and can’t then you can always create motivations for them. There could be different approach for different people. Knowing which approach would work is a very personal thing on both psychological and physical sense and it only works if it’s not dealt by generalizing it.
My point is, we shouldn’t be confused about some basic things, things are not so black and white with everything… some people understand it and still majority don’t… news and media and ads don’t help and even contribute more to the problems… People are same and different on abstractions level… we can’t treat things with extremes without understanding it… Something works for one person but doesn’t mean works on everyone and also there are thing that universally works on everyone or almost. it’s recognizing those abstractions more clearly and we can save on enormous amount of attention and effort wasted on these and just stop looping in circles. we can not judge the world with simple lens, generalization is the root of most problems…
The topic is kinda stuck on one thing. it went in some weird directions. But I want to shift the gears from the systems and frameworks to solutions that can be more useful during current crisis.
I think the best strategy would be innovate in diagnostics. There’s should a quick test which gives result in like 5 minutes. I heard about some self-tests kits… But I would still have issue with trusting people with self test. a ton of things can go wrong, not testing properly, not disclosing if infected, not disposing properly after test etc… also a lot of people probably can’t afford… it will create a ton of logistical problems… People may start hoarding on this as well…
For serious crisis like this, the implementation must be more effective, I think government must deployed testing vans strategically in areas depending on population… so people who can not operate from home, can get tested periodically and get a pass. Pass can be for 2-3 days then get tested again. The frequency depends on how soon you start infecting other after catching infection… You could potentially implement slot booking so people don’t cluster at one time…
However people will still need to follow safety protocols like washing hands, social distancing etc… but at least total lock-down can be lifted… Obviously if you combine this with contact tracing then this could actually become quite robust way to manage, like CXR test in the mock-ups above… But even without app but with proper strategy, we can reopen businesses obviously not as usual.
Considering this virus is still a new born and we are making up rules as the math on tests pans out.
- a vaccine would be epic if it’s not mutating a lot
- drugs to releave symptoms that prove fatel would be nice
- Hospitals having room for people that might die.
Even if 2billion people had this and could self isolate and live it would be ok. I guess we are destorying the economy to try make room in the hospital system to keep people alive and make / identify drugs that lower symptoms that end in death.
As it stands now with no data history. We are over reacting or not doing enough as the same time. Everyone has an opinion
I’ve reduced the risks; in order of severity, with the main metric being loss of life, above in the thread. It’s a pic.
There is more than one strain being reported; but I’m not qualified to say what that means, even if I knew. Vaccines are in the stage of human testing though. That happened very quickly.
I was chatting with the household last night and some researchers were saying there may be a way to create a vaccine for all strains of this coronavirus by inhibiting it’s ability to find lung tissue.
Which would mean that even if it mutates, it should still protect.
I think it is a noble and worthwhile path to pursue.
#optimism
good news here in australia
strict, legally enforceable social distancing and work from home seems to be working…
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My “speculation” is that there are multiple strains of this virus around the world. This might explain why it’s far less lethal in some countries.
it is actually a good thing that it’s mutating faster because probability of mutating it into more dangerous version is far less than less dangerous types. If we ever want to reach herd immunity, the virus must become the least dangerous to us…
1 word, unpreparedness.
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I just hate stupidity