AdoredTV - Low resolution benchmarks are worthless

I decided to look at his gamer this 1080p so test Ryzen at 1080p logic tech tubers are using.

OK lets begin.

Thats all they say to justify this.

VRAM

So most of these 1080p gamers are on 1024MB and 2048MB GPU cards. Justification for a modern GPU needed zero.

Physical CPU's


2 cores or 4 core are the norm. Sure lets check clock speed

Clock Speed


Only 4.21% of steam gamers even have a faster than Ryzen CPU's to start with.

So test Ryzen at 1080p ?
4.21% Have a 7700K class (over 3.7GHz) CPU
5.03% Run a display 2560x1080 or greater and I included other (because there are alot of multi moniters etc).
7.28% Have a 6GB or greater VRAM in their GPU

What is the chance that this 4-7% gamer class have all 3 ticks. Expensive CPU, GPU and Display ?

We live in this tech bubble where we think everyone is pushing for the best CPU, best GPU and well 1080p is where we game at. Most steam players have crappy machines if you ask me and are happy gamers.

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I know I'm late to the party, Does it really matter? Ryzen is a great chip and will only get better with microcode imporivements and BIOS updates. Having a competitive 8/16 in the market at that price point will do wonders for Gamers, Productivity and the like. This will also push Developers to get off their tail and develop better async and multiprocess applications. All the Drama that has insued since the launch pinning media outlets and YouTubers against each other over synthetic benchmarks and core clocks. It's pathetic really.

If you play a racing sim and look to your side you would see the closest objects to your eye moving at great speed, If at 350fps you see 3 ish frames of said object, at 550fps you would see 5 ish frames of that object thereby creating a greater illusion of movement. Its not rocket surgery.

am i the only guy who thinks that the lower tdp of the 1700 + the massive multi core performance could take over the laptop market? all the higher clocked intel chips have to downclock for thermals/power and a 65 tdp vs 91 on the 7700k is a rather big difference. the 1700 may also have to downclock but if so less drastically and it would still have double the cores. multi core on a laptop intel would have nothing to beat it or even come close. single core it would probably still loose a bit to intel. since you wouldnt be overclocking anyway, the manufacture could use a cheaper non sli/cf mobo that doesnt allow oc and you get a laptop with 8-16gb of ram, a small ssd, the 1700, a 1080p screen, and a decent 470/480 level gpu (polaris/vega on laptop when?) for around 800-1000$usd. not top of the top of the line, but mid-range it does very well vs the competition. if you want something you can do work on but also game, and has to be travel friendly it brings the cores to the table.

or this could never happen whatever you want amd.

TDP ≠ TDP

There will be zen core laptop chips and I think they will kick ass.
But I don't know if a fully loaded 8c/16t CPU is on the todo list for that. We will see.

I do agree with what he says in the fact that testing at lower resolutions is definitely not any way to determine future performance. I do agree with the fact that testing at lower resolutions does in fact benchmark the cpu's performance, BUT, it only benchmarks the performance in that particular game (and its also not a fully conclusive test either).

Since the performance shown, is only that specific game you test, you can't use that to determine much of anything but the performance in that one game; If that one game were cpu bottlenecked (most of the time it won't be).

So it gives a good idea of the performance you can expect in that game if you had a super high end or future graphics card. But it will not tell you the performance of an unknown game from the future with a future graphics card. I think this needs to be very clear in those tests. Those tests do not measure the full gaming performance of a cpu. They measure the performance of the game they are testing. I don't think testing a handful of games using this method is even enough data points to make a very solid conclusion.

Honestly, any tests that go over 144 fps (or maybe 240, since there is 1 240 monitor available now. and I don't see higher than 240hz displays happening anytime within the lifetime of any of these cpus), provide very little useful information to anyone playing those games. Since running above the refresh rate of your monitor does not really do much of anything for you (could argue that with vsync, higher framerates would give you a slightly newer frame, but vsync is terrible and the difference is kind of minimal). So if the cpu can hit say 240 fps at 480P low settings, that means it's fully capable of playing that game no matter what.

Anything higher is moot to gaming performance. Games are not like rendering software where it will use always 100% of the cpu and use 100% of the cpu to complete the action faster. Games run at set speeds (yes you can alter the speed the engine is running at using something like cheatengine), so regardless of extra cpu resources, the game will not perform any better with a better cpu. So the benchmarks really can't be compared like they are competing on a leaderboard. It's either you finish the race or you don't. If both cpus score above 240 fps in the cpu test, they both pass, thus are both equal in gaming performance in that game (as far as fps tests go at least).

Another test for gaming performance for cpus would be the frame time. It again has a ceiling, as if your frame time is perfect, that's where the comparing stops and both cpus will be equal again. Frametime is often a much better test of gaming performance than just the average fps.

The other good test of gaming performance would be the minimum frame rates. This is also another very noticeable thing for people playing games, thus making it a good test to do.

So if you want to properly determine gaming performance; You should bottleneck the cpu and make sure it can do 240+ fps that way you are able to play at high frame rates if you have the graphic cards and monitor to support it. You then lock the fps at the highest your monitor supports and measure the frametimes (while again keeping the cpu bottlenecked). Then you test at realistic settings and test the minimum frame rates and frametimes. This will give you a very clear picture of the performance of the game.

If you were to do tests like that for many different games using many different engines, you can then at least make some sort of conclusion to its gaming performance. But it still will never tell you the future performance of that cpu. Nothing can tell you that. You can only guess. And based on data from multi-threaded performance and the fact games are definitely going to start optimizing for more threads (due to consoles and the fact both amd and a few developers have publically stated they will be optimizing for ryzen), the r7 1700 is a very good choice for gaming.

That's why those reviews are so misleading. They are misrepresenting the tests they are using. Which is what makes them wrong. It's lying through omission (basically what the MSM does all the time). Granted i'm sure many are due to just ignorance, rather than purposely trying to make the cpu look bad. But there are of course, some that do it purposely for whatever reason they have for doing so.

That's my take on it anyway.

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Hardware Unboxed vs AdoredTV

Shots fired!

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I just watched that. I think it is deserved.

Yeah, pretty much everybody that have followed CPU performance was shocked by the statement that the FX-8370 beats the 2500K in games. It doesn't. I have no idea how Computerbase came to that conclusion. FPS numbers does not add up and Frame Time latency and analysis does not either. Actually, the FX-8370 is around the worst CPU when it comes to Frame latency. Sure, the old Sandy bridge is far from ideal when doing Frame Time analysis, still it is plenty better than Vishera (Piledriver).

Computerbase have not released any more in depth data on their testing. So far everything points to them being wrong and for Jim (Adored) to use that outlier of a test to prop up his argument is just bad. I do think Jim has a point, I just can't see any support for it in that test.

Add to this that the 2500K overclocks like champ, almost all gets to 4.5. Yes, the FX-8370 also overclocks, still much much easier to keep a 2500K at 4.5 GHz than to get a FX-8370 to 5 GHz. And we have numbers for the FX-9590, it still loses.

i got my 2600k to 4.8 :)

With Ryzen, its hard to tell how it will improve just from better bios and better support from like windows and game devs. The single core benchmarks seem pretty impressive for such a low core clock. The next 2 or 3 years is going to be exciting in the CPU industry, I think. Excited to see the 6 and 4 core performances of Zen, and then iterations on SMT will also be exciting. Excited to see Intel's next gen. Excited to see Intel's next E class. And then how long are we going to be stuck at 14nm?!

It's exciting for me because I don't plan on getting a new rig for at least a year. I look forward to seeing all this stuff get ironed out.

Yeah, multithreading didn't save the FX series, and it won't save the Ryzen against Skylake now like some people are suggesting here, specially the ones that showed me the games that used FX as a recommended system requirement (it's only recommended because that's the available CPU AMD had at the time of development, not because of performance). So using that example, an old 4c i5 is still faster than the 8370 today, the same perhaps can be said for the new Ryzen, it may never trully compete with the Skylake in pure gaming perhaps, and those who keep saying "it's a new architecture and devs are just learning to optimize for it" are gonna get themselves disappointed.

It was interesting to see that Ryzen did not do well in the more threaded games. Ashes of the Singularity for example, Ryzen trails Intel here with a good margin. Sure it can be a little better, but it probably won't make a world of a difference. AMD did some compromises in Ryzen to get that nice multi thread performance for productivity apps. It hurts them in typical gaming loads. You can still game fine on a Ryzen, but it won't ever beat Intel as long as it has those compromises. Zen2 or Zen3 might have fever compromises if Ryzen sells well. Seems like it is doing well over here, Nordichardware reported that the re-sellers they've talked to sold out the first week. Beats Intel 2011 at about 10 to 1 in sales. Intel desktop CPUs still sell better, but not bad, not bad at all.

If AMD does 4-core Ryzen that is just one CCX, that CPU will probably be a good one for gaming. With a nice price/perf ratio they could be very competitive. If it can run RAM at a little higher speeds, that could be a winner.

Interesting though, a 4-core with both CCX:es, aka a 2+2 could be interesting for productivity apps if it could keep the whole 16MB L3. But that is probably too much to ask? We'll see in a couple of months anyway.

meh, good enough for gaming and utterly fantastic at the things that pay the bills is more than good enough for me.

i5 level performance at 1080p doesnt deter me in the slightest.

I'm waiting on those smaller parts from Rzyen as well, however, I'm not hearing a resounding yes from those who've turned off cores on Ryzen 7 through the bios or Affinity in the task manager to mimic 4c i7.

I was thinking the same thing as i upgraded from a 8350. Not make an excuse. It was just what i was looking for.

If you're running an old FX it is a no brainer, Ryzen is just soo much better at everything. And the platform is great too.

For me it is different, I sold my 8350 a couple of years ago and got an Intel six core with double rebates outof a bargain bin. Not sure if Ryzen really is an worth it for me yet. Much that I do is single thread dependent. However, my motherboard can be very irritating (X79). If it starts acting up again...

As far as I can tell amd just made broadwell-e obsolete (EXCEPT if you be wanting crap tonne of IO :D)

It's intels own fault.. for the last 6 years or so they have just been competing with themselves and the artificial gap created by their own product 'differentiation' gave amd the right spot to aim for.

I am still a bit of a holdout on dropping the hammer though as I want to see what the Radeon Pro Render has to offer, as a cinema4d user the biggest draw of ryzen is of course the cinebench score.. BUT if the Radeon Pro render delivers then it kind of makes cpu rendering in cinema4d obsolete..

I do want more IO. I am still waiting on my mb too see what kind of compromises that i am going to have to make in real world use.