A Net Neutrality Chat with Paul from Paul's Hardware! | Level One Techs

Ironically, I think title I gets us there faster than title II because common carriers are protected from having to filter data, or care about the messages they carry. Can you imagine the outrage if people’s postal mail was read, inspected, sorted, and (de)prioritized against their wishes? With title I, because those are information services, they can come up with whatever novel business model they want. the original idea with title I in '96 was that all the baby bells would continue to co-exist but offering different value-add services. They planned a-la-carte cable TV services to gobble-up-whole the cable TV market (it wasn’t really catching on as a two-way medium then, though some rollouts in some places were ahead of their time).

that’s what information services meant. things like AOL. These telecom companies saw themselves as the natural and only option fo " online destinations. " – things that are today google, netflix, (major sites). So if they want to charge per byte? ok. Per page? ok. Flat rate? Sure. 1-900 video sex chats @ $10 per minute? Yep totally ok. the idea with the information service (title I) is that the telecom company is the destination. So common carrier stuff just doesn’t make sense in that scenario. Cool new business ideas could pop up too.

Well, given a choice of “the internet” and “aol” consumers voted with their wallet. And that was at a time where you really could vote with your wallet and your ISP and your phone line were separate companies and separate charges with nothing to do with one another.

The most insidious argument is that “google, netflix, etc” “control the internet” because a lot of people go there, go to those destinations, but ISPs dont… didn’t even register on my radar because it is such a non-sequtur. Would you abandon twitter tomorrow if tweets cost $1.99? Yep. Does twitter have to pay for their internet connection? Yep. Do you have to pay for yours? Yep. What does the ISP have to do with charging twitter, in this hypothetical situation, for access to you, as a subscriber?

In the case of netflix they say because netflix uses so much bandwidth. Who’s bandwidth? They pay their own ISP for a connection. You pay for yours. What other bandwidth is there in that equation?

Cable companies are kind of like, maybe, an information service. They offer TV channels as an information service and can sell it at whatever crazy business model they want. Is there any consumer on the planet that wouldn’t choose a-la-carte cable TV services? I don’t think so… Then why hasn’t the market brought that to consumers that want that? I think it’s because the consumers are a captive audience.

And now we get to the crux of the problem. With netflix, hulu, etc. They start to be less of a captive audience. Cable TV is being abandoned in droves. How can a cable company insert themselves in the equation again, while seeming reasonable about their insertion in a place where they don’t belong?

They see it as capitalistic because I’m willing to pay more for my bits that bring me star trek the next generation than I am willing to pay for bits that bring me spam. But a bit is a bit is a bit. They must create some sort of situation to exploit the fact I’m willing to pay more where (currently, ideally) none exists.

If the network were separate from services, it would be easy enough to solve the “protection” and “great firewall” problem because the government doesn’t operate at a high enough level in the network stack to do anything about it. In fact, with encryption, my packets can’t be inspected. It’s why the GFW of China has to basically hard core throttle anything with encryption because it can’t really be inspected.

Peer to peer mesh might solve that problem (think how the network has evolved in cuba, where the inside-cuba network is pretty fast, lots of sharing of stuff via sneakernet), or it might make it worse (a few choke points where the mesh joins the internet make it easy to filter --incidentally this natural business consolidation has already created the situation a decade ago for AT&T. Remember that nation wide ATT DSL outage last year? Yeah, misconfigured DHCP server. The infrastructure is so fragile a single chokepoint brought down the whole works. Check out wikipedia room 641A – that’d be where you’d insert “protection” if you were a malevolent state actor. We’re already in your worst case scenario then, eh? hahaha.

Stuff like that makes me think it would go more the cuban route where it is almost sneakernet and the connections to “the outside” is fundamentally broken. This has already been anticipated, and is called the balkanization of the internet. I believe the rationale inside China is that making non-China services really crappy strongly encourages Chinese citizens to use the local option.

Common carrier status should prevent the injection of packets in conversations (e.g. tcp packets that close the connection). Anyone that says it was “throttling” peer to peer doesn’t really understand what the admins were actually deliberately doing. You can easily throttle peer to peer without resorting to “mail tampering.” I was told by an insider this was done deliberately at management request in order to obscure the fact that the ISP was the one closing the connection… which the tech did in such a way as to not also include throttling, so it would be noticed, as a way of alerting the internet at large without (hopefully) putting their job at risk. idk if that’s true but it makes a bit of sense.

I would love to have an insider’s knowledge of what went down with Netflix and Comcast.

Sadly a lot of you have drank the doomsday koolaid juice a little too hard.

No I absolutely do not trust ISPs especially after working for 2 of them.

However what the FCC is doing is is giving the FTC control and moving ISPs to Title 1 from Title 2.

And this is anecdotal but we can all agree the state of the internet has definitely gotten worse in the past 2 years, worse than I ever imagined.

Like tom wheeler trying to get the ISPs to comply with memos under title I… the fcc can’t do that. Only congress can. They seem to stop just short of saying that the FTC could, for example, investigate or impose a fine for things like… not advertising hidden fees or that the speeds are “up to” or that there are data bandwidth caps?

… Ajit Pai has said this is one of the things that ngatively impacts small ISPs… but has it?

Can you be more specific? I am concerned because I haven’t seen anything from anyone, other than the hand-wavy FTC bit, that anything could be done if, for example, ATT decides to start blocking face time? Or verizon blocks google wallet? Those things actually happened… under title I…

It went all the way through a court of law, wherein the judge said that title I companies are allowed to do that under the law, if they want.

And since the same judge said the FCC can’t make up laws or regulations… and congress hasn’t given the FTC the authority to act if Verizon or ATT do something blatantly anticompetitive like that again under title I… how is the FTC going to help? Or if you are ok that those companies do that as part of their business model, let’s be up front and clear about that and say, yes, doing this kind of thing is A-OK to suppliment their incomes? More power to them for their innovative business model and that’s the american way? I mean… I really want to understand.

I really dislike regulation but idk how we parley this into a situation that generates more competition… which is what we need to do the most… ?

So you are saying that the firewall is unavoidable (either from the ISP’s as the blocking of content that they do not want to compete with, or the government as a way to “protect” us from ourselves). This then becomes an issue of how do we resolve having content blocked from us. If it’s a private company, we can vote with out wallet. If it’s the government blocking us, then we have to rely on the government being responsive to our desires or potentially waiting 2-6 years for the change we have requested as we replace the senators and representatives elected.

Would a mesh network setup that is run fully by the citizens implementing it really be something that falls under Title I or Title II? Does single point light frequency fall under the government’s regulations on spectrum use (quick wiki says that it is managed from 3 kHz to 300 GHz)? Can this point to point mesh network just avoid all the existing laws and be its own internet?

I am also going to be reading up on the Cuban network now, that sounds fascinating.

A lot of things need to be done and I agree this is not ideal. I’d rather them fix Title 2 or create a new section rather than go back to the old one.

You have to be aware of the extreme doomsday astroturphing by companies like Google who I trust less than AT&T or Verizon.

This is not good, but it’s not the end of the world. Even lazy boomers who just want to look at Facebook will be pissed when they find out Facebook and AT&T are arguing and they have to pay more or just can’t access it.

ISPs have been anything but neutral in the past 2 years.

The best thing that could be done is have actual real antitrust laws allowing competition. But it’s pretty funny that companies like Dyn who own our fiber backbone are being completely ignored.

The problem with that is the garbage speeds/latency and interruptions you would get.

They can’t block TOR though, hopefully this just loves more people to TOR which would be great.

One thing that can be said for Mesh Networking is that it could be exempt from legislation. It could be implemented with a more grass roots model via a not for profit hub of sorts. The major ISPs are in essence middle men between the citizenry and a market that is not so monopolized. This pretty much means that a distribution of network savvy individuals are needed to secure home networks or to help the average household do so; with easy to understand “tips and tricks” type open access content. Maybe members of the geek community could donate time to the not for profit.

Sadly there really doesn’t seem to be any resolution to the ISPs gouging it’s customers as it’s fiduciary responsibility towards it’s investors that is promoting it. I just don’t see a way for individuals to address this problem; as the ISPs are a middle man there as well. This could be another case where claims were made and the claimant falls flat without delivering.

It could also be valuable to continue to discuss the viability of Mesh Networks as an “incentive” for carriers to get it together. Lighting a fire under those sitting on their hands is often effective.

(EDIT) I guess that I should have explained my last statement. Economies grow horizontally as well as vertically. The vertical growth is where existing businesses grow in value; and the horizontal growth is where new businesses emerge. Horizontal growth can not only stabilize the economy to varying degrees, it can also create jobs and stimulate economic growth as well. It also has the added favorable effect of distributing wealth and markets.

If Internet 2.0 was in such dire straits that it appeared to be potentially a loss of an entire market in the near term, it would be obvious to all who are involved. This would include the major ISPs themselves, Congress and the investors. Choosing between the total loss of a market to a grass roots solution and re-injecting competition into an unstable market would be a tough decision for the three players; but it seems to be an inevitable one. The lack of stability and the desperate behaviors that are now ensuring dividends are to be it’s downfall by probability alone.

There is however a caveat. There is a lot of will to not only control the infrastructure, but to also be the infrastructure (coughs Google). Failure of the major ISPs could go very badly even if Google rolls out blindingly fast fiber. The battle for Net Neutrality is in every way a war of attrition. We could wind up worse off by getting what we want. Don’t get me wrong. It would be amazing at first; but Google is an LLC now, and I’m not confident that they wouldn’t dominate… at all.

FCC 15-24 — formally known as the Report and Order on Remand, Declaratory Ruling, and Order in the Matter of Protecting and Promoting the Open Internet, but commonly referred to as ‘Net Neutrality,”
Full text of 15-24 here: https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-15-24A1.pdf

IMHO the Elmer Gantryesque devotion gives me pause, 1990 to 2015 saw great strides in home connectivity. I also remember the first data caps, a subject overshadowed by the Ajit Pai is Satan meme.
AOL and Compuserve both had 20 hours for a fee, after 20 or so hours it went to an hourly rates. when AOL went unlimited it became the standard.

How should the internet be regulated should be the discussion.
Instead we are dominated by the “net neutrality” narrative which prevents any deviation from the for/against paradigm.

@wendell - in this specific case, ISP:s are already regulating internet traffic. Any regulation to prevent it is, in fact, a deregulation of internet traffic.

The water is really muddy on the regulation/deregulation vocabulary.

Insanely Way Off Topic:
I noticed you have a box of Lyons Tea behind you @wendell. Did you like it? Have you also had Barrys Tea?

Currently watching the video.

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Boston, 1773-12-16. Have dots, will connect :slight_smile: .

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It was funny you mentioned long distance fees. My previous job was working for a prepaid calling card company in a technical aspect, including troubleshooting termination issues. Had a case where this one particular cLEC owned an NPANXX in one town… then the next town over (thereby making it a long distance call) they owned another NPANXX. So for carriers that were not them to originate and terminate calls between these 2 towns they were being charged at 35 cents/minute total (not including circuits). This caused the long haul CARRIER (bigger ones would not service the towns due to cLEC) to try to jam as much voice traffic down 1 T1 as they could, this led to the expect horrid voice quality. cLEC’s would commit many of the same atrocities as the iLEC’s… just on a smaller scale. Pretty abysmal as my company had to pay a shitload of taxes/fees into those assholes.

yeah, prettymuch, but good luck explaining that to some random citizen.

I really should have touched on zero rating as well because that’s effectively two parties colluding which can be anti-capitalistic in the sense that it erects barriers to prevent competition from entering a market. Again, protection money, but to the businesses not the citizens.

I wonder if duncan hines got any demand letters from electric companies because since hines’ no bake cookies don’t use any electricity, it hurts electric company margins…

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So, I know the US loves a good class action lawsuit. Has there ever been any attempt to lodge one for the misappropriation of funds, or failure to deliver on the promise of the telecommunication acts? I did sort of skim over the posts, so sorry if I missed this.

I guess they could try but the companies finance are murky as fuck anyways… it would be virtually impossible to track where the money went. And even if you could… they wouldn’t be held to do anything worth a shit. They wouldn’t be held financially liable for any of this, and if they were they would contact their lobbyists which would in turn create the “Make American Telecommunications Great Again” bill stripping any sort of penalties using law.

Geeks Without Bounds is mobilizing a grass roots project for the creation of an open internet.

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Attorney Generals in several states are suing the FCC.

You can block TOR…

There’s still easy ways of getting around it.