2 questions about TR4 workstation build

I’m forced to consider a new workstation (the old Sandy Bridge one’s wheezing to its death anytime now), although I’d rather waited for Zen 2 Threadrippers. No games, just a bit of rendering and a lot of x265.

So either I get something cheap until the end of next year (1800x or so), or I get most of the stuff now, plop in a cheap 1900x or 1920x and upgrade next year.

So my first question - please polish your finest crystal ball - is the latter really an option? From the rumors sofar (AdorageTV mainly, but also others) the next gen might support 8 channel memory, will have a completely new design etc. So a mainboard upgrade would possibly be necessary. In which case I’d have to sell a virtually worthless x399 with a low end TR CPU - sounds like a lot of money lost, I’m from team blue until now, and in your experience and best guestimate, will the Zen 2 threadrippers work on x399 without being crippled? How does AMD do about keeping promises?

Secondly, I’m rather thrown back to really early years, when ISA cards would not work in all IBM PC compatibles. I mean, what’s with AMD Zen and memory compatibility? I want a 64GB kit in 4 modules and from the QVL of the Fatality, Taichi and Prime X it sounds like I’m asking for memory made of pure gold. None of the more affordable 3000-3200 kits are listed (I’m perfectly fine with CL16), and the very few that are listed are the ones that cost the absolute most. If they’re available at all here in the EU. Never had such issues with my Intel builds.

I scoured the QVLs and the manufacturers’ configurators for days (Corsair especially seems to “love” AMD), and combining this information with what is actually available on the market here, I’m left with maybe 10 kits (excluding the color variations). Everyone seems to just go with the most expensive kit, but I’d rather not feed the colluding trolls. Sorry about the rant but my head hurts after this frustrating experience.:tired_face:

So these are the ones that remain on my list:
Gskill F4-2400CL16Q-64GFT - Fortis 2400 cl16
Gskill F4-2400CL15Q-64GFT - Fortis 2400 cl15
Gskill F4-2400CL16Q-64GFX - Flare X 2400 cl16
Gskill F4-2400CL15Q-64GFX - Flare X 2400 cl15
(note: the faster yet affordable TridentZ kits were only listed as max 2 modules, not 4)
HyperX HX430C15PB3K4/64 - Predator 2933 cl15
HyperX HX426C16FBK4/64 - Predator 2666 cl16
HyperX HX426C13PB3/16 - Predator 2666 cl13

Yes, I know the last one is a single module, but the Taichi QVL says it’s capable of running in 4 slots.

Does anyone here have experience with these and can tell me if they run well, and preferably can be OC’d to 2933 at least?

Oh, and when Threadripper came out last year, the Ballistix Sport LT 2666 kits were listed as compatible with the Fatality, now they’re nowhere to be found on the QVL. So AGESA updates actually reduce the memory support?? These were my choice then, for when I’d planned to update, as these supposedly OC’d easily to 3000…

Anyway, thanks for reading if you made it this far :sweat_smile: I hope some of you can give me a hand here (with information, I got the aspirins covered myself)

Board vendors do not test all memory kits, they more or less just grab whatever they have lying around the bench and thats gonna be your QVL. The are probably a lot of memory modules that would work, that do no appear on the QVL. Of course the board vendor does not guarantee it will work without problems, but often it does. Board makers just cannot be bothered to spend the time actually testing a bazillion memory kits, so they have limited QVLs.

If you get 16 GB sticks, with Samsung B-die chips, you will be fine, even if it is not on the QVL. For shopping for memory in the EU I highly recommend geizhals.eu, this website the the best parametric search for RAM I have ever seen in my life.

Thanks for taking the time to reply! I am aware of AMD’s love for the very expensive Samsung b-die. I checked for modules via the b-die finder on benzhaomin, and hardwareluxx. The problem is as I mentioned in my original post, that these modules are much much more expensive and do not really offer that much value for the extra bit of speed they offer. Good for speed junkies and hardcore overclockers. A simple 3200 cl16 or 3000 cl16 is the best bang for the buck though.

What I don’t get is that another brand of die simply does not work at all. Makes you wonder why they bothered to make a DDR4 standard if modules that adhere to that standard won’t even post. Example: samsung b-die TridentZ 3400 cl16-16-16-36 (when selecting 64GB, 4 modules, on b-die-finder this is the lowest, thus cheapest possible) will cost 855 EUR. A TridentZ kit of 3200 cl16 non-b-die, currently 579 but I’ve seen them on sale for 529. That’s almost 50% more for the b-die modules. These non-b-die modules do not even post - see Paul’s Hardware on his review of a low cost TR4 setup. At the very least they should work on Jedec standard 2133.

I agree with your remark on vendors’ QVL, but with this mess the reply one gets when asking “what memory should I buy” is always “check the QVL”. So I did that and compiled a list. But I’m very much open to anyone who can advise a set of 64GB (16x4) in the same price range of 500-650 that will work. I use Geizhals a lot, but unfortunatly, there’s no search criterium for Ryzen/TR compatibility :grinning: Frustratingly though, the cheapest shops on Geizhals won’t ship outside Germany.

edit: realizing I did not check all modules on b-die-finder, I just did that for Corsair, HyperX and Gskill, since those I can get here. Best price was 752 EUR. Still a 30% AMD memory tax. There must be non-b-die modules that work? Pity there’s no site like b-die-finder to just find any compatible modules.

The thing is, AMD is improving and changing the integrated memory controller from generation to generation. Zen 2 is a new node, so that can mean the memory controller is worse again or it is better because they had a lot longer to work on it. There is no way to tell whether current generation Threadripper behaves the same as Zen2 Threadripper regarding memory. The reason memory with Ryzen is so finicky is probably that AMD have tied it to other timings of the processor communication.

Regarding AGESA: It is often the case that memory behaviour and overclocking margins get worse with a new AGESA update because there are a whole lot of changes involved. Motherboard manufacturers tweak settings to work better with their boards in the BIOS iterations after AGESA changes, so most of the time it is better to skip to one or two BIOS after a new AGESA update.

Unfortunately I can’t really look into the future and I am not sure what to tell you.

I agree with @Methylzero regarding the QVL. A lot of memory works without beein on the QVL. With Ryzen however, you often can’t reach the advertized clockspeeds. The best thing would be to ask around in forums what memory people have tested. Unfortunately I don’t have a Threadripper build.

Thanks for your input! Although it’s not good news. Basically what you are saying is that the much vaunted ‘upgrade path’ that the AMD platform is supposed to offer is very uncertain, and I should rather treat it like with Intel platforms: when upgrading, get new memory and mainboard with the new CPU.

I’ll have to do some calculating in this case, but I think I might just get some cheap intermediate system until Zen 2 then.

Maybe I gave you a wrong impression by only focussing on one part. Sorry if that was the case.

Memory support will very likely not be worse than first generation Threadripper, however leaning to the higher frequencies (>2900Mt/s ) there probably will be some shuffling around which kits reach which frequency. So I don’t think it makes sense to split hair there. Also, with quad channel it is definitely harder to hit high frequencies.

Regarding AGESA I meant that often the BIOS with AGESA update is worse for overclocking and after that it gets better again because the motherboard guys can start to tweak again.

In my case with my x370-PRIME I bought some 3200 memory that was not on the QVL. It still worked but only at 2988.

Regarding whether AMD will change the platform for the next Threadripper generation, I really doubt it. It is not what they have generally done in the past and it is not in their interest now. Octa channel will not be on the next Threadripper generation, there is no reason for it (my 2cents). Also with the TR1 boards they even gave the TR2 software features to TR1, so there is that.

Now I am rambling :grin:. All I wanted to say is, to not worry tooooo much about the memory.

Also, memory prices are sloooowly starting to come down again.

Seems like people have problem with this kit with xmp https://www.amazon.de/Corsair-Vengeance-3000MHz-Performance-Arbeitsspeicher/dp/B01HFR9BY6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1538683184&sr=8-2&keywords=ddr4+64gb+3000
but it can be made to work with looser timings.

The thing with a “cheap” in between system is, that it still costs quite a bit of money. Selling stuff is often a hassle where I am, so I often vote for the upgrade path instead of “in between systems”.

I can feel your pain, decissions are hard.

I think if you start looking at lower speed kits (say, 2666) you might be able to find a kit that works at that speed. Also maybe take a look at ECC memory, we have a Ryzen 1700X system with 2 * 16 GB of 2400 ECC RAM, works out of the box no memory problems. (we have definitely had other problems like getting a segfaulting CPU and freezing at idle due to some sort of power saving feature being buggy)
I dont think it is on the QVL of the mobo, and it is probably not B-die.
The thing you need to keep in mind when it comes to large amounts of RAM, is that the more chips you have on a single memory channel, the harder it is for the memory controller to drive them.
Since the most dense, widely available memory chips are 8 Gbit/chip, you need 8 chips for an 8GB module. Using one module per channel, that works out to be 16 GB for AM4, and 32 GB for TR4. If you want more RAM, you can get sticks that have 16 chips on them, these are called dual rank modules. Since they have a more chips they are harder to drive at high speeds.
The best stability comes with using 1 single rank module per channel, then comes 1 dual rank dimm per channel, than 2 single rank per channel and finally 2 dual rank per channel. So if you want 64 gigs on TR2 you need to get dual rank modules, i think that is the main cause of the stability problems.

The octacore rumor is based on the fact that Epyc has this, and the rumor that the next gen Intel HEDT platform will be 6 channel. It would make sense to reply to this by using the Epyc 8 channel controller, especially for the WX line of TRs. That said, this is just a rumor. Like the information Hardware Unboxed released, that Intel would split their HEDT platform in two lines, like AMD has done for the X and WX Threadrippers. Except Intel will be using different sockets and chipsets. Now that is a really stupid idea I hope AMD won’t copy - one socket and chipset is enough!

I’m worrying about my poor wallet! No worries about rambling, I asked for it.

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820236027&cm_re=lpx_x399--20-236-027--Product

I run this on my X399 board. Works great and checks your boxes.

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Thanks for your input! The link however leads to a 4x8GB kit, not a 4x16GB kit. Did you link to the wrong one?

Well I only have a 32GB kit in mine. But you can easily get to the 64GB kit from that link.

Yes! I noticed the “x399 compatible” in the description and did a search on that! Nice going Newegg! Unfortunately I won’t be buying from them, too expensive to import to the EU, but I can get some more compatible kit SKU numbers to search on Geizhals. Thanks again!

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Well, in this case I have no idea. In a way it makes sense to add memory channels, because with this many cores they start to get low on bandwidth per core. That would mean new motherboards are necessary. I don’t really think they will change the socket though. AMD planned well ahead with the socket, I believe there are still plenty of pins left to use.